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Truck plows into crowd at Christmas street market in Berlin

you are missing the point: the high number of illegal immigrants in the US highlights the fact that it is relatively easy to enter illegally, a situation that could easily be exploited by dangerous people, just as loose borders and easy immigration have been taken advantage of in Europe

Why haven't they been exploited already?

Why is the possible threat of Muslim illegal immigrants killing Americans more important than the everyday reality of Americans killing Americans?
 
I don't think we should loosen them and I don't think we should tighten them either. The system we have in place does a great job, any other talk about Muslim registries and bans and such is just fear mongering to people that always need an enemy but are never in danger.

LOLOLOL. 12 million illegal immigrants in the country and you keep saying that the system we have in place does a great job?

I'll ask the question again: Are you fucking crazy???
 
He was talking about the system that vets people coming in from Syria and other ME refugee states and it has worked.
 
Yeah we are talking about Muslims, refugees and such not Hispanics which is pretty easy to understand using context clues. So you want to try to divert back to illegal immigrants crossing the Mexican border which clearly isn't the issue in a thread about Islamic terrorists running a truck through a market.
 
They arew already here and have had to get visas. We will still have the data they gave us. Unless each of them are being followed by agents, this isn't a big deal.
 
People don't even know what "they system we have in place" is. They just know they haven't been blown up by a Muslim yet and don't care and the Muslim guy at the 7/11 who they say hi to once a week seems like a nice guy, even though he may actually be a Sikh. The system is more permissive than the system we had in place prior to 9/11, and the last 8 years of open borders did not help. The only way it is better than it was prior to 9/11 is that name checks are run on people and we now fingerprint and photograph people coming into the country. In the meantime, we dilly dally everywhere else and let the illegals flow in freely while simultaneously granting legal workers with absolutely zero skills get green cards within a few months of applying.
 
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Obama just loosened the immigration rules for Muslims yesterday.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/31...visitor-registry-ahead-of-trumps-inauguration

"The Obama administration is abolishing a national registry program created to track visitors from countries with active terrorist groups....."

Bob, the system was replaced in 2011. But the funny thing is it was just what you described and it existed under 2 Presidents, and your man Trump was blasted for his "racist" idea of a Muslim registry that tracked Muslim visitors to this country. The other funny thing is that this maneuver is completely meaningless by Obama and serves no purpose other to rile up both sides of the debate as he leaves office.
 
Bob, the system was replaced in 2011. But the funny thing is it was just what you described and it existed under 2 Presidents, and your man Trump was blasted for his "racist" idea of a Muslim registry that tracked Muslim visitors to this country. The other funny thing is that this maneuver is completely meaningless by Obama and serves no purpose other to rile up both sides of the debate as he leaves office.

Has the system actually been replaced....or has it been there all the time and the Obama Administration just chose not to use it since 2011? I didn't read anything in the article that said the system had been replaced....only that it had not been used since 2011.

In any event, Obama has made it perfectly clear that he is for loosening immigration restrictions....unlike what RJ has stated. This latest move is just one very obvious indication of his position.
 
I think your question needs to be how many Muslim illegal immigrants are in this country. Your statement about illegal immigrants would matter if we had land borders easily accessible to areas that are majority Islamic and war torn like it exists in Europe. Instead our illegal immigrant population is Catholic and if weren't the enemy of the right would fall right in line with religious conservative thinking.

Might as well address the elephant in the room you and to an even greater extent RJ want to keep promoting as a non-issue.

I think it was on another thread where RJ said 99% of all Muslims in the U.S. are assimilated. Later in that same thread he said Muslims in the U.S. are different than the ones in Europe because they don't live in ghettos and then alluded to "all" of them being assimilated. I'll put aside the rather odd notion of a liberal, progressive thinker like RJ associating ghettos as inherently likely to breed crime.

What I have, however, been noting for well over a week is that immigrants and refugees from societies that do not hold our secular values are absolutely prone to creating significant issues in our communities and that we must stand up for secular values and demand and support reforms from within those societies both at home and abroad. I say this because I live in a state with somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 refugees from a war torn country - Somalia. Most of them live in the Twin Cities metro. And the issues that community both faces and creates for the broader community (and even, potentially, for the country) are very real.

I'll preface this by noting that the significant majority of these people are law abiding. I don't run around day to day thinking about Somali crime. But I am also very much aware of the challenges and stresses this community places upon local and Federal law enforcement and other government agencies. That notion that most of the refugees are law abiding must remain very firmly in the left side of your brain. Try not to go all reactionary as you read through all of the examples below. The point is, the issues cited below are very real. And, by and large, the issues this community both faces and creates greatly outstrip their proportion of our state population.

The causes here are also complex. Not only does Somali society have very different norms and values from our own, the region is war torn - meaning many of the refugees have experienced outrageous instances of trauma. Many of these refugees come to our country with limited education and few skills. Most of them arrive with very few resources. And all of them are trying to adapt to a very different society, which creates its own stresses.

To try and claim 99% of these folks have assimilated, that there are not elements of radicalization within their community and that the values some within their community do not present unique risks is just misplaced. Local and Federal authorities spend significant resources trying to find ways to aid assimilation and to assure radicalization is kept in check.

1 - The community has significant crime issues. Quite a bit of it is gang related. Again, the reasons are complex. For years the U.S. government took the position they would not deport Somali criminals deemed dangerous because they did not wish to return these individuals to a war torn country. In part this is because Somalia is just a dangerous place. In part it was because a return to Somalia might present a greater risk these individuals could become radicalized and cause problems in other ways around the world. But a few years ago the government shifted its stance and lined up as many as 3,000 convicted felons for deportation. 3,000 out of a total population at the top end of estimates which numbers 100,000. This is from the Star Tribune. http://www.startribune.com/feds-step-up-deportation-of-somalis-in-trouble-in-minnesota/224729142/

2 - The idea none of these refugees are prone to radicalization is just demonstrably false. The FBI in the Twin Cities spends significant resources monitoring the community because it knows youth are targeted for radicalization. This is just the latest case. There have been others - including one several years ago where up to 40 youth simply went missing and returned to Somalia to join an Al-Qaeda affiliated terror group. And this should be of concern to all of us. http://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/11/16/third-day-of-isis-trial

3 - Part of their cultural differences are just different approaches to how they treat women and girls and their greater acceptance of violence. We are talking about a society where it is common place for girls to be circumcised. Among other things it is generally accepted that issues of domestic violence are higher than in our general population and less likely to ever be reported. Yes, the broader community seeks to make resources available to address these issues. But these are things that happen. This is from Maine - reporting on domestic violence in their Somali refugee community. http://www.pressherald.com/2014/10/01/domestic-violence-often-kept-hidden-by-maine-immigrants-refugees/

4 - As further evidence of different cultural views, there are numerous incidents which bleed into and impact the broader community. All of these are recent:

This happened about a mile from my house this summer. I do not know the victim. But I do know people who live in the immediate vicinity and this was extremely aggressive and alarming. Again, one culture and its greater acceptance of violence towards women clashing with another. http://kstp.com/news/minneapolis-police-investigate-alleged-terroristic-threats-calhoun-parkway/4186341/

My daughter and her friends love to go to Uptown - which is essentially where this happened. It is a trendy neighborhood full of shops and restaurants. So this was also alarming to local parents. One of the perps here was in his 50's. Again, one culture and its views on violence towards women clashing with another. http://www.startribune.com/woman-assaulted-by-five-men-while-walking-in-uptown-on-saturday-night/376450591/

Just last week a Somali refugee allegedly raped a woman at knife point on a bus up North of the Twin Cities. Think about how brazen you need to be to rape someone on a bus. http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/news/Minneapolis-man-charged-with-raping-woman-at-knifepoint-while-traveling-on-bus-through-Polk-County-406224285.html

And I think everyone is aware of the young man in St. Cloud who wandered into a Mall recently and started attacking people with a machete after asking if his victims were Muslim.

If we are going to talk about these issues, it is important we do so from a position of honesty about the very real challenges refugee communities from countries that are traumatized and do not practice Western secular values can pose.
 
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Might as well address the elephant in the room you and to an even greater extent RJ want to keep promoting as a non-issue.

I think it was on another thread where RJ said 99% of all Muslims in the U.S. are assimilated. Later in that same thread he said Muslims in the U.S. are different than the ones in Europe because they don't live in ghettos and then alluded to "all" of them being assimilated. I'll put aside the rather odd notion of a liberal, progressive thinker like RJ associating ghettos as inherently likely to breed crime.

What I have, however, been noting for well over a week is that immigrants and refugees from societies that do not hold our secular values are absolutely prone to creating significant issues in our communities and that we must stand up for secular values and demand and support reforms from within those societies both at home and abroad. I say this because I live in a state with somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 refugees from a war torn country - Somalia. Most of them live in the Twin Cities metro. And the issues that community both faces and creates for the broader community (and even, potentially, for the country) are very real.

I'll preface this by noting that the significant majority of these people are law abiding. I don't run around day to day thinking about Somali crime. But I am also very much aware of the challenges and stresses this community places upon local and Federal law enforcement and other government agencies. That notion that most of the refugees are law abiding must remain very firmly in the left side of your brain. Try not to go all reactionary as you read through all of the examples below. The point is, the issues cited below are very real. And, by and large, the issues this community both faces and creates greatly outstrip their proportion of our state population.

The causes here are also complex. Not only is Somali society have very different norms and values from our own, the region is war torn - meaning many of the refugees have experienced outrageous instances of trauma. Many of these refugees come to our country with limited education and few skills. Most of them arrive with very few resources. And all of them are trying to adapt to a very different society, which creates its own stresses.

To try and claim 99% of these folks have assimilated, that there are not elements of radicalization within their community and that the values some within their community do not present unique risks is just misplaced. Local and Federal authorities spend significant resources trying to find ways to aid assimilation and to assure radicalization is kept in check.

1 - The community has significant crime issues. Quite a bit of it is gang related. Again, the reasons are complex. For years the U.S. government took the position they would not deport Somali criminals deemed dangerous because they did not wish to return these individuals to a war torn country. In part this is because Somalia is just a dangerous place. In part it was because a return to Somalia might present a greater risk these individuals could become radicalized and cause problems in other ways around the world. But a few years ago the government shifted its stance and lined up as many as 3,000 convicted felons for deportation. 3,000 out of a total population at the top end of estimates which numbers 100,000. This is from the Star Tribune. http://www.startribune.com/feds-step-up-deportation-of-somalis-in-trouble-in-minnesota/224729142/

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2015-crime-statistics
"The 2015 statistics show the estimated rate of violent crime was 372.6 offenses per 100,000 inhabitants, and the property crime rate was 2,487.0 offenses per 100,000 inhabitants. The violent crime rate rose 3.1 percent compared with the 2014 rate, and the property crime rate declined 3.4 percent."
This shows that the US crime rate is about about 2850 people/100,000 residents. It would be logical to believe that the lower the socio-economic group, The higher the crime rate. It wouldn't take much to get 2850 to 3000.


2 - The idea none of these refugees are prone to radicalization is just demonstrably false. The FBI in the Twin Cities spends significant resources monitoring the community because it knows youth are targeted for radicalization. This is just the latest case. There have been others - including one several years ago where up to 40 youth simply went missing and returned to Somalia to join an Al-Qaeda affiliated terror group. And this should be of concern to all of us. http://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/11/16/third-day-of-isis-trial

3 - Part of their cultural differences are just different approaches to how they treat women and girls and their greater acceptance of violence. We are talking about a society where it is common place for girls to be circumcised. Among other things it is generally accepted that issues of domestic violence are higher than in our general population and less likely to ever be reported. Yes, the broader community seeks to make resources available to address these issues. But these are things that happen. This is from Maine - reporting on domestic violence in their Somali refugee community. http://www.pressherald.com/2014/10/01/domestic-violence-often-kept-hidden-by-maine-immigrants-refugees/

4 - As further evidence of different cultural views, there are numerous incidents which bleed into and impact the broader community. All of these are recent:

This happened about a mile from my house this summer. I do not know the victim. But I do know people who live in the immediate vicinity and this was extremely aggressive and alarming. Again, one culture and its greater acceptance of violence towards women clashing with another. http://kstp.com/news/minneapolis-police-investigate-alleged-terroristic-threats-calhoun-parkway/4186341/

My daughter and her friends love to go to Uptown - which is essentially where this happened. It is a trendy neighborhood full of shops and restaurants. So this was also alarming to local parents. One of the perps here was in his 50's. Again, one culture and its views on violence towards women clashing with another. http://www.startribune.com/woman-assaulted-by-five-men-while-walking-in-uptown-on-saturday-night/376450591/

Just last week a Somali refugee allegedly raped a woman at knife point on a bus up North of the Twin Cities. Think about how brazen you need to be to rape someone on a bus. http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/news/Minneapolis-man-charged-with-raping-woman-at-knifepoint-while-traveling-on-bus-through-Polk-County-406224285.html

And I think everyone is aware of the young man in St. Cloud who wandered into a Mall recently and started attacking people with a machete after asking if his victims were Muslim.



If we are going to talk about these issues, it is important we do so from a position of honesty about the very real challenges refugee communities from countries that are traumatized and do not practice Western secular values can pose.

You are acting like no one else has ever gotten raped on a bus. It's a sad fact, but it is a fact that it has happened.

Did you ever think that being from a war torn country would have an impact coming here from other countries wouldn't? It's well known in US criminal arenas that a person who has been abused is more likely to become an abuser. A person whose parent was in a gang is more likely to be in a gang.

When people are brought here from a war torn country, we need more services for them not fewer.

Assimilated doesn't mean angelic.

As to "I'll put aside the rather odd notion of a liberal, progressive thinker like RJ associating ghettos as inherently likely to breed crime. " Anyone with a brain knows areas of poverty have higher crime. The difference between a "liberal, progressive" thinker and a conservative, anti-American non-thinker who wants to deny entry to an entire religion or portray an entire religion as barbarians (as you do) is that we come up with ideas to add people in these situations to our society and economy.

Not only is this the moral thing to do. It's the best way to grow a market based economy.
 
Why haven't they been exploited already?

Why is the possible threat of Muslim illegal immigrants killing Americans more important than the everyday reality of Americans killing Americans?

you sound like some silly German or French liberal from a couple of decades ago
 
you sound like some silly German or French liberal from a couple of decades ago

You sound like someone dodging the question.

DeacMan, I could make a similar list of crimes committed by Americans. Why should I attribute crimes solely to someone's nation of origin?
 
You are acting like no one else has ever gotten raped on a bus. It's a sad fact, but it is a fact that it has happened.

Did you ever think that being from a war torn country would have an impact coming here from other countries wouldn't? It's well known in US criminal arenas that a person who has been abused is more likely to become an abuser. A person whose parent was in a gang is more likely to be in a gang.

When people are brought here from a war torn country, we need more services for them not fewer.

Assimilated doesn't mean angelic.

As to "I'll put aside the rather odd notion of a liberal, progressive thinker like RJ associating ghettos as inherently likely to breed crime. " Anyone with a brain knows areas of poverty have higher crime. The difference between a "liberal, progressive" thinker and a conservative, anti-American non-thinker who wants to deny entry to an entire religion or portray an entire religion as barbarians (as you do) is that we come up with ideas to add people in these situations to our society and economy.

Not only is this the moral thing to do. It's the best way to grow a market based economy.

So, if I understand your point correct, accepting refugees with vastly different cultural norms who come from war torn countries unchecked is a moral obligation that will undoubtedly lead to economic growth. Is that correct? I'll just put aside any issues of potential public safety - such as the potential someone may become radicalized and decide to go and hack random people to death in a shopping mall with a machete.

And, in the interest of actually trying to get you to engage in a meaningful discussion, I'm going to not accept the notion you've posited above that if anyone questions any of impacts of such immigration in any way they are an "anti-American, non-thinker" who "wants to deny entry to an entire religion or portray an entire religion as barbarians". I'll put that aside because I have not made this suggestion and it seems you are making this type of claim in a pretty weak effort to marginalize anything I might have to offer to a discussion.

So in an effort to actually engage with you, can you answer some questions:

1 - What does assimilation mean? You've noted it does not mean angelic. You've also previously condemned aspects of Muslim societies - such as Somalia - that condone viewpoints in significant percentages well beyond what we typically encounter in our society that you would never personally accept. So, to that end, help me understand how you draw a line? Is your position, honestly, that people who come from societies that do not respect rights for women, gays, non-Muslims, etc. will simply not ever act on those beliefs? Are we to accept that some refugees trying to join ISIS is just a normal cost of immigration or that all immigrants who come from a country where female circumcision is common place are just going to immediately morph into our more enlightened sphere of thinking about women's rights?

And when responding note my use of "some" and "all" above. It's easy to just take a 50,000 foot view. How do you, however, suggest I talk to my daughter about multiple incidents of Somali men threatening or engaging in sexual assaults in areas she likes to frequent with her friends? Should my attitude be to tell her don't sweat it, go ahead and engage if someone wants to speak with you?

2 - Did you not make note of the part of my post where I acknowledged people who suffer from trauma have their own unique life challenges? Just want to ensure you read that part.

3 - Did you not make note of the part of my post where I acknowledged that despite the existence of real and unique challenges associated with Somali immigrants, most of them are law abiding? Just want to ensure you read that part too.

3 - When I noted the FBI and other Federal and state agencies were spending significant resources in our state to aid this community, what did you think I meant? When answering consider that I am well aware of the wide range of social services our community provides to aid the Somali community (as well as other immigrant communities). Please also keep in mind I have volunteered both my own time and my money to provide assistance by teaching English, mentoring youth, delivering charitable goods and making donations.

4 - Since on another thread you said the issues Europe is facing are associated with ghettos and that American Muslims are assimilated and different than Euro Muslims, how do you juxtapose the example of Somali refugees in Minnesota? How do they fit within the statement you made about the condition of US Muslim immigrants not living in poverty and ghettos? When answering, please note more than half of the Somalis living in Minnesota live in poverty and that many do live in public housing projects.

5 - Re: the crime rate, since you above note that poverty = higher crime why are you taking numbers about people lined up for deportation, highlighting them in bold red type, and then suggesting this equates to a crime rate? Is your point the Somali community, despite being poor and having a high rate of past trauma, is somehow immune to a higher crime rate? Or are you going to step away from your position in bold faced type and acknowledge that the number of people designated to be deported for criminal activity is several steps removed from the actual crime rate of this community? I presume you are aware, for instance, that to get on a deportation list if you are legally admitted to our country (which is the case with Somali refugees) you (a) have to commit at least one serious crime, and (b) get convicted of at least one serious crime. And that because of these facts, the number of people on a deportation list is not a crime rate.

5 - And what do you make of the notion the U.S. government determined in 2013 it will deport criminals back to their war torn country - which represents a change in policy? Namely when does our moral obligation to assist individuals end?

6 - When you cite we have a moral obligation whose fulfillment will also drive economic growth, can you describe how, exactly, those intersect? Immigration policy is just that - a policy. It is one of many policies our government seeks to balance against other choices it must make. As a society we need to make determinations about how and where we invest resources. Where are the resources we have for humanitarian aid and public safety best invested in Minnesota? What limits are we to place on those resources? Do they know no bounds? Is one group - say African-Americans, Ecuadorian immigrants, Mexican immigrants, Hmong immigrants or Somali immigrants - per se to be assigned a greater amount of resource than another group? Should we be basing our decisions in any way on which group faces the more significant challenges as a community and requires on some per capita basis the most attention of law enforcement?

Help me think through all this stuff without being glib, RJ.
 
3B99FABC00000578-0-image-a-13_1482514446139.jpg

He's more concerned about Facebook comments than catching a terrorist': German politician faces resignation calls after preventing police sharing image of Berlin truck killer
Till Steffen prevented law enforcers in Hamburg from releasing pictures of Anis Amri, it is claimed
There was a 12 hour delay before the images were finally shared, while Amri was at large
He faces call to step down, amid claims he was concerned about inciting racial hatred
The delay was branded 'incomprehensible' by critics


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-image-Berlin-truck-killer.html#ixzz4Th5ag7Vx
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
 
You are acting like no one else has ever gotten raped on a bus. It's a sad fact, but it is a fact that it has happened.

Did you ever think that being from a war torn country would have an impact coming here from other countries wouldn't? It's well known in US criminal arenas that a person who has been abused is more likely to become an abuser. A person whose parent was in a gang is more likely to be in a gang.

When people are brought here from a war torn country, we need more services for them not fewer.

Assimilated doesn't mean angelic.

As to "I'll put aside the rather odd notion of a liberal, progressive thinker like RJ associating ghettos as inherently likely to breed crime. " Anyone with a brain knows areas of poverty have higher crime. The difference between a "liberal, progressive" thinker and a conservative, anti-American non-thinker who wants to deny entry to an entire religion or portray an entire religion as barbarians (as you do) is that we come up with ideas to add people in these situations to our society and economy.

Not only is this the moral thing to do. It's the best way to grow a market based economy.

So many fallacies, so little time.
 
So many fallacies, so little time.

RJ is a total fucking idiot. I still think his brain was fried before he left WF in 1974. His position as stated...and I'm being deadly serious here....is that people who have been abused are more likely to become abusers. Therefore, we need to take in as many of these people as we can so that we can offer them more taxpayer-funded services. That's solid gold stuff. You can't make up bullshit like this.
 
If you don't start with putting me down, I won't hit back.

In the past twenty years, you've always thought yourself superior and not have wanted discussions of equals who may have differing opinions. In the past you could flex and ban people. You can't do that here, but you continue to be snarky and condescending.

Everything in your post is meant to insult. Why would I want to respond when that is I'll ever get back from you? If you want to put think in a civil manner, maybe you'll get a response.

The reality is on this thread and on the thread about Islam, your stance is very clear and disturbing.

By the way, here are the FBI's hate crime stats where Muslims were the victims, - http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-assaults-reach-911-era-levels-fbi-data-show/ . Here's another that shows hate crimes going fueled by attacks on Muslims.

No group is perfect and Muslims aren't. Some commit crimes just like some Jews do and some Christians do and some atheists do.

Here;s a breakdown of hate crimes in the US. https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2012/topic-pages/victims/victims_final

"Religious bias
Of the 1,340 victims of an anti-religious hate crime:

62.4 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-Jewish bias.
11.6 percent were victims of an anti-Islamic bias.
7.5 percent were victims of a bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).
6.4 percent were victims of an anti-Catholic bias.
2.6 percent were victims of an anti-Protestant bias.
0.9 percent were victims of an anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.
8.6 percent were victims of a bias against other religions (anti-other religion)

Although I'm not directly answering DeacMan until he becomes more and respectful, one should think about Somali problem in MN also having more EU tendencies due to the fact that a large number of that population live in virtually segregated neighborhoods and lower income areas. When you add those factors, to the nature of their home country, using this group as an indicator of anything other than groups with this extreme set of criteria is not useful in discussing general Muslim assimilation in US.
 
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