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2020 Presidential Election: Biden v. Trump

you have to give yourself over to the Biden wholeheartedly or Trump wins
 
I don't think you understand how evil Trump is he's easily the worst thing that has ever happened in this country's history anything that doesn't focus on defeating him is a distraction
 
In my opinion if you are a left leaner and conclude that Joe Biden is evil and or that you hate him you're not engaging in very nuanced thought.
 
hate isn't thought though, it's feeling. isn't feeling an essential part of politics? it can't all be dialectic.
 
ChrisL68 said:
In my opinion if you are a left leaner and conclude that Joe Biden is evil and or that you hate him you're not engaging in very nuanced thought.
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I think he considers himself a loyal public servant with good intentions. I don't think he's engaged in broad scale corruption or intentionally hateful policymaking. I think he was once a thoughtful public person. He's always essentially toed the party line. People genuinely seem to love him as a person. When I made the Facebook suburban wine mom characterization a while back, the person who uses the black lady as a gif response to something online as an avatar for black female friendship, in that same framework, Joe Biden has created more real life black support and black friendships than that suburban white lady ever will.

All that said, he's played an important part in creating a whole lot of pain and suffering around the world in a long career of public service. I don't give him much credit for the good work he's done, and I do place a lot of blame there, with full eyes wide open to his life circumstances full of tragedy and the Congresses and Presidential administration he's been a part of.

If that's not nuanced enough for you, I can expand.
 
TownieDeac said:
I think he considers himself a loyal public servant with good intentions. I don't think he's engaged in broad scale corruption or intentionally hateful policymaking. I think he was once a thoughtful public person. He's always essentially toed the party line. People genuinely seem to love him as a person. When I made the Facebook suburban wine mom characterization a while back, the person who uses the black lady as a gif response to something online as an avatar for black female friendship, in that same framework, Joe Biden has created more real life black support and black friendships than that suburban white lady ever will.

All that said, he's played an important part in creating a whole lot of pain and suffering around the world in a long career of public service. I don't give him much credit for the good work he's done, and I do place a lot of blame there, with full eyes wide open to his life circumstances full of tragedy and the Congresses and Presidential administration he's been a part of.

If that's not nuanced enough for you, I can expand.
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I think this is mostly fine. The problem I have with it, and many on the far left in general, is that this reasoning doesn't account heavily enough for the fact that norms, attitudes, and culture changes over the years. And so can politicians. There are those who are ahead of the curve, and they deserve credit for it. For example, if you support Bernie over Biden because Bernie has championed socialist causes more consistently and for far longer - I totally get it. And to say that a person or a politician is simply a product of their generation/time does not excuse many, or all, moral and/or policy failings. But it does provide context.

We all have a tendency to label ourselves or people we support differently than people we don't. Is Biden "evil" or is he rather a decent guy who has a mixed record on important issues, some positions/votes of which have caused suffering? He's not entitled to blind support just because he's the Dem Nominee. But I do think it's fair to examine his platform, albeit with necessary skeptism, regarding what he will do for progressives moving forward. I also don't really understand why you say you wouldn't give him credit for positive things he's supported.
 
Jamison2Carter said:
I think this is mostly fine. The problem I have with it, and many on the far left in general, is that this reasoning doesn't account heavily enough for the fact that norms, attitudes, and culture changes over the years. And so can politicians. There are those who are ahead of the curve, and they deserve credit for it. For example, if you support Bernie over Biden because Bernie has championed socialist causes more consistently and for far longer - I totally get it. And to say that a person or a politician is simply a product of their generation/time does not excuse many, or all, moral and/or policy failings. But it does provide context.

We all have a tendency to label ourselves or people we support differently than people we don't. Is Biden "evil" or is he rather a decent guy who has a mixed record on important issues, some positions/votes of which have caused suffering? He's not entitled to blind support just because he's the Dem Nominee. But I do think it's fair to examine his platform, albeit with necessary skeptism, regarding what he will do for progressives moving forward. I also don't really understand why you say you wouldn't give him credit for positive things he's supported.
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Norms, attitudes, and culture changes, but plenty of people bravely push the boundaries in ways that actually effect change. Most of our “heroes” in historical narratives are people who, in the face of status quo understandings, made morally progressive decisions and experienced the consequences. We don’t typically celebrate those who were following zeitgeist trends and going with the societal flow.
 
Nobody is asking you to celebrate Biden. Nobody is saying that he deserves the same place in history as Ghandi. But if you're deciding whether to vote for Biden, Trump, a third party, or not at all, and you're being asked to distinguish between 1) their records and 2) the probable results of their respective administrations, I don't think concluding that Biden is "evil" is reasonable.

But we've gone round and round about all this. I don't really give a shit at this point what the extreme liberals here (or anywhere) do or don't do. There's nothing Biden or anyone else can do to persuade them at this point. His record is what it is. He is who he is. The difference between the character and decency of the two candidates couldn't be clearer. If one's value system leads you to conclude that you can't vote for Biden with all the information that is before us, then nothing is going to change that.
 
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For example, Biden’s war mongering shows no moral courage at all whatsoever even “if everybody was doing it” at the time.
 
Jamison2Carter said:
Nobody is asking you to celebrate Biden. Nobody is saying that he deserves the same place in history as Ghandi. But if you're deciding whether to vote for Biden, Trump, a third party, or not at all, and you're being asked to distinguish between 1) their records and 2) the probable results of their respective administrations, I don't think concluding that Biden is "evil" is reasonable.

But we've gone round and round about all this. I don't really give a shit at this point what the extreme liberals here (or anywhere) do or don't do. There's nothing Biden or anyone else can do to persuade them at this point. His record is what it is. He is who he is. The difference between the character and decency of the two candidates couldn't be clearer. If one's value system leads you to conclude that you can't vote for Biden with all the information that is before us, then nothing is going to change that.
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Is it possible to hold the opinions that “Trump is evil,” Biden is evil,” and “Biden is less evil and will get my vote” simultaneously? Seems reasonable?
 
Strickland33 said:
Is it possible to hold the opinions that “Trump is evil,” Biden is evil,” and “Biden is less evil and will get my vote” simultaneously? Seems reasonable?
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I guess. I understand if people view Biden as a part of a system that needs far more drastic change than he is ever likely to push for w.r.t. banks, corporations, inequality, etc.

I just think if Biden is your standard for "evil" - then we have a different feeling of what that word entails, or alternatively you think an awful lot of people are "evil."
 
Jamison2Carter said:
Nobody is asking you to celebrate Biden. Nobody is saying that he deserves the same place in history as Ghandi. But if you're deciding whether to vote for Biden, Trump, a third party, or not at all, and you're being asked to distinguish between 1) their records and 2) the probable results of their respective administrations, I don't think concluding that Biden is "evil" is reasonable.

But we've gone round and round about all this. I don't really give a shit at this point what the extreme liberals here (or anywhere) do or don't do. There's nothing Biden or anyone else can do to persuade them at this point. His record is what it is. He is who he is. The difference between the character and decency of the two candidates couldn't be clearer. If one's value system leads you to conclude that you can't vote for Biden with all the information that is before us, then nothing is going to change that.
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What he said.
 
Jamison2Carter said:
I guess. I understand if people view Biden as a part of a system that needs far more drastic change than he is ever likely to push for w.r.t. banks, corporations, inequality, etc.

I just think if Biden is your standard for "evil" - then we have a different feeling of what that word entails, or alternatively you think an awful lot of people are "evil."
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My bigger issue, though, is that he hasn’t advocated for any change in some important areas, sometimes even advocating against change or for regressive policy changes.

Biden isn’t my standard for evil. I would say he’s in a 2nd quartile if we’re thinking about a normal distribution of evil. Median evil is a guy like Ronald Reagan or George W Bush, useful idiots who in their action and inaction do a lot of evil, anticipated and unanticipated. Biden is in that category of people who do a lot of evil but largely do not anticipate the extent of it beyond “breaking a few eggs” in the service of baking a more perfect union.
 
All of this is to say that you could imagine a leader with greater moral courage than Joe Biden leading the Democratic Party and United States down much different policy trajectories that had the potential to make a legitimately good impact on the world rather than some extent of evil (e.g., millions of civilian casualties in unnecessary, imperialistic wars or a VAWA without a 94 crime bill attached to it, to name two decisions that he made in prominent positions of congressional leadership).
 
Jamison2Carter said:
You. Maybe there’s a better term for it, I don’t mean any offense by it. But not really interested in playing this game.
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I don’t take offense, but you are using liberal incorrectly. I don’t identify as a liberal.
 
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