2020 Presidential Election: Biden v. Trump

[Shooshmoo]

The new budgets would redirect large amounts of that money to create other positions that would specialize in specific communities crisis needs: mental health, domestic disturbances, investigation, etc. Its basically trading in a box full of hammers for a well equipped toolbox, that still includes a normal, non fascist amount of hammers.

I get the first part, I am trying to understand how we will somehow have a "normal, non-fascist amount of hammers".

 

[TownieDeac]

Can we agree that Defund the Police is a bad name for what that movement is seeking to accomplish (which I agree with)?

Setting that aside, given that it does not mean abolish the police (I guess to some it does), but just significantly cut their oversized budgets so they're not buying fucking tanks and other military equipment -- definitely something I agree with --how does that solve the problem of a continuing to exist police force that will not be reformed, will have less money for training, will potentially be paying less and attracting even shittier people, etc.?

Once again we're on the wrong thread, as there's a lot of good discussion of this already in the F is for Fascism thread.

I wouldn't get hung up on the name here. I am very hung up on the specifics though, as liberal reforms have failed for decades. Providing more money for more training is a failed policy approach, and Biden suggesting it here is remarkably tone deaf to progress being made around the country.

Here's the best way I've seen the discussion framed so far: there are cities where crime is an inherent static condition. Law enforcement does a middling to poor job of controlling that static condition, but reforms to it have almost entirely failed to safeguard the lives of the people it means to protect. But what hasn't really been meaningfully tried across a mass scale is the rethinking and re-funding the other conditions that lead to and foster crime, and funnel people from the education system into the criminal justice system. The lack of drug treatment and rehabilitation facilities, the criminalization of poverty, the lack of mental health support, the underfunded social work sector, all of the above are problems dumped onto a militarized police force. Let's narrow the focus of law enforcement to just that, enforcement of the laws.

 

[TownieDeac]

Not especially. This isn't really the thread for it, but I'd strongly suggest the latest episode of Chapo Trap House, a 1-1 interview with Matt Christman, which frames these recent protests in context of 1848 and 1905, draws useful distinctions between protests and insurrections, talks about the strengths and weaknesses of spontaneous rally vs one with leadership, etc. It talks about how people learn to protest; for a lot of people in the millennial cohort, their first protest was the Women's March around the start of the Trump administration.

I've definitely cast judgment on the "If Hillary were President, We'd be at Brunch" crowd, but it's still a starting point of political direct action outside of electoralism. And Matt made some important points the podcast has never really conceded before with its detached ironic approach, which is to say that building a coalition will be much easier around "defund and refund" arguments for policing than "abolition" arguments. Again, I heartily suggest it, though probably not for people like ChrisL. It sort of predicted the Biden approach to these protests as a neoliberal one first and foremost rather than one focused on social/racial justice.

For a scumbag left comedy podcast, it does a terrific job contextualizing our current cultural moment.

For anyone interested. I also like the section around how online discourse fits into this moment.

 

[PhDeac]

Bernie tried to lead this revolution from within the existing political infrastructure but was stymied and now people are taking to the streets.

The conditions weren’t there.

This movement doesn’t need a “leader” especially in politics.

Politicians need to follow.

 

[TownieDeac]

"Not me, us."

 

[BillBrasky]

Myself and others tried to tell y'all this was about to pop off but not one of you smug centrists wanted to listen. Now the Biffs of the world might have to wait two more weeks for their local coffee shop to reopen.

The saddest thing ever is going to be when jackshit happens following November. I will be pleasantly surprised if any real reforms occur, racially or economically. I can already feel the corporate hand of the party moving its way in to stop any real change. The Dem leadership (white, black and brown) better step the fuck up. If not the next protest/riot will be on their hands.

 

[TownieDeac]

The Biden wing of the party doesn't know how to engage with labor. There's still plenty of room outside electoral politics for effecting change.

A Biden neoliberal/compromise approach to labor and this current moment is something like "We will abolish police unions BUT in order to get that through Congress, we also had to get rid of teachers unions."

 

[RJKarl]

If you don't think defunding PDs to get rid of police unions won't have a tsunami impact on many (if not all) unions, you are living in a dream world. Before you were born, people said destroying the air traffic controllers' union wouldn't impact anyone but them. It was a seminal moment in the union movement and has led to many fewer and weaker unions.

Be careful what you ask for. The results may not be what you expect. If you can break one union, you can break others.

Yes, there needs to be dramatic reform, but breaking unions will impact all unions. Pay for every day workers will likely go down.

 

[TownieDeac]

That's why I'd prefer to keep it out of the hands of Congress and the executive branch and with Labor leadership to deal with.

 

[MHBDemon]

To be fair, Bernie’s plan includes more police funding and he was rightly criticized for it.

 

[TownieDeac]

Yeah, good point. Also important to note that Biden has traditionally trailed voters when it came to social sentiment. If we assume he'll get there, here's a good leading indicator:

 

[MHBDemon]

I'm not sure I could have come up with a funnier parody if I tried.

JFC. I worked in NMTCs for 8 years. It’s a tool for gentrification that enriches lawyers, accountants, and the financial industry.

 

[TownieDeac]

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

The conditions weren’t there.

This movement doesn’t need a “leader” especially in politics.

Politicians need to follow.

No one knows what the conditions are necessary to radicalize the national Democratic voting base, but I can guarantee you that hasn't changed in the past two weeks. Older Democratic voters, white and black, are more paralyzed with fear of Trump then they are mobilized for any type of major change

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

The more I think about it the more I respect the Republican strategy of just letting a fascist drive their party off the rails and put the Democrats completely on the defensive for 4 years now. He's preventing the party from focusing on anything but him. It's genius.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Joe Biden can't pick his fucking nose right now without a hundred beltway campaign consultants testing the polls to see what some white suburban dickheads think about the booger. Hes frozen.

 

[PhDeac]

No one knows what the conditions are necessary to radicalize the national Democratic voting base, but I can guarantee you that hasn't changed in the past two weeks. Older Democratic voters, white and black, are more paralyzed with fear of Trump then they are mobilized for any type of major change

Based on what? You’re blind if you don’t think the game has changed in the last two weeks.

 

[BillBrasky]

Based on what? You’re blind if you don’t think the game has changed in the last two weeks.

I agree the game has changed, but if the participants are the same, will the results be different?

I hope so, but I have doubts.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Based on what? You’re blind if you don’t think the game has changed in the last two weeks.

I'd counter that you're extremely naive if you think Joe Biden's primary voting base are relevant to the current wave of protests. That's all borne out in the national Democratic response to the demands of the protests. It isn't as if there is a parallel movement of more reasonable, pragmatic senior citizen activists. Sure there is absolutely cultural solidarity between the younger black people protesting and the older black people *not* protesting, but there is still a political divide even in that solidarity.

 

[PhDeac]

You’re extremely hopeful if you thought the DC establishment would change completely after two weeks of protests.

The center of the party has moved traumatically but there will be significant lag. I do think the fact that DC is one of the epicenters will help.

Any significant change in policing will happen in cities and towns before it happens in the federal government. We will quickly go back to Obama era guidance if Biden wins.