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2023 Masters Thread

guitardeac said:
It hasn't even been a year since these guys left the PGA Tour and schedule. That's nothing. Of course they haven't lost their games - YET.

And one more factor - they are playing without ANY pressure in terms of the paycheck they would receive from The Masters. That takes away some pressure that enters the mind. They are completely carefree. And don't think that didn't enter their minds prior to LIV windfall - it does creep in.
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I mean, there are a lot of posts on the PGA thread suggesting that LIV guys would mostly get destroyed in this year's majors, although I haven't bothered to check whether you were the one saying that or not.

I'm about as anti-LIV as anyone, I think it's been a net negative for the overall golf fan viewing experience and I think that LIV events themselves are uninteresting to watch. But I do think it's important to acknowledge that we shouldn't move goalposts regarding what we are saying about individual LIV golfers. A lot of people said they would struggle to even make cuts at majors, that none of them (outside of maybe Cam Smith) would ever contend for a major again, and that none of them would be particularly relevant as golfers moving forward. Based on this year's Masters, that isn't what seems to be happening.

Maybe your theory posted here that it will take greater than 1 year for their games to fall off will turn out correct, but the early returns suggest that LIV guys can still be competitive in majors.
 
Frosty said:
I think this matches up with what Brooks was kind of saying during his Full Swing episode, i.e. being anxious and depressed about maybe being washed.
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He is definitely not washed. I'll be shocked if he doesn't contend in every major when healthy.
 
I’m not a fan of the LIV tour, but I think it’s absurd they don’t get OWGR points. Their field clearly has some of the world’s best golfers, and if you can perform well in one of their events, then that is certainly worth something. Their points should certainly not be on the same level as the PGA Tour or the DP Tour, but you can’t tell me that winning a LIV event is meaningless when evaluating someone’s golf talent relative to all the other professionals in the world.
 
Liquid Karma said:
If they want points, there is a clearly defined path for doing so and it doesn't happen overnight. The players were sold a bill of goods by 2 lying narcissists and expect to have their cake and eat it too.
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This can't be overstated.
 
Mixed bag for LIV. Koepka looking dominant was huge for them, but so was his collapse. And 3 of the top 6 is a great look, but it's pretty muddled by the weak field at the Masters and they still only had 4 guys shoot under par. Cam and DJ being irrelevant is arguably more problematic than Phil's amazing Sunday. The weather also put a big time hurt on around half the draw and shortened the field even further.

Agree that it'll probably suck for the competitive LIV guys to go back to their joke tour while the rest of the world gets fired up for the real season - especially given how great the year has been already.

If anything this kinda perpetuates more of the love/hate sides of LIV. Even anti-LIV folks like me can admit that the PGA Tour is a better product now because of LIV, and that the battling tours angle made for an even more compelling Masters that saw 2 guys run away from the field. I felt like Mickelson and a few others were able to just kinda forget about the whole "playing for a murderous regime because $$$" thing thanks to the history and comfort of Augusta - it was the first time I've seen Phil look genuinely happy in the past 2 years.

And while LIV can shout that the haters were wrong and their players are still great, will win majors moving forward, yada yada yada - I don't think their irrelevance was ever going to look like all of them missing the cut at the Masters. I think it'll look more like a slow descent to irrelevance for all but a couple guys. Then reality will set in that LIV only seeks to steal what the other tours create, not create players on their own. Actual success would mean up-and-coming new players making a splash in majors or driving interest in their events versus this quasi-Senior tour thing they have going. I see zero progress or future on that front.
 
What Mickelson did at the 2023 Masters has nothing to do with LIV.

He played in three LIV events this year. Each was a 48 person field and Mickelson finished T27, T30 and T41. That's the same as three missed cuts. It's not like LIV prepped him for Augusta, but it didn't hurt him either because Phil knows Augusta National and he has won their three times and finished in the top 20 four more times since his last win. Local knowledge.

To point up how this is Phil knows Augusta thing -- Phil had not finished in the top 5 in any event, LIV, PGA or DP tour since the 2021 PGA. That is over 27 different events, some with incredibly weak fields. Never contended in any of those events.

Even in his mid 50s, Mickelson is still a freak of a player - one of the best of all time (who hasn't destroyed his body via car accidents, surgeries and medication), who has a played in more Masters tournaments than Tiger. There is no course in the world that favors course experience like Augusta (which is why 63 year old Fred Couples continues to make cuts at the Masters; he wouldn't on any other tour stop; Couples isn't even an elite Champions Tour player). Phil found the magic for a weekend, just like he did in 2021 when he became the oldest player to win a major (over Koepka BTW). Didn't matter if Phil was sucking on the PGAT, DP, Asian Tour, Korn Ferry or just playing Nassaus on his home course, Phil still has the experience and knowledge to pull a weekend at Augusta out of his ass, and he did that this week. Don't be surprised when he misses the cut, at the next three 2023 majors. No matter how Mickelson fairs in the intervening LIV events.

Reed is a prick who lives for the "me against the world" situations. He's also won at Augusta. So, again, not shocking that he would play well there.
 
DCDeac said:
Mixed bag for LIV. Koepka looking dominant was huge for them, but so was his collapse. And 3 of the top 6 is a great look, but it's pretty muddled by the weak field at the Masters and they still only had 4 guys shoot under par. Cam and DJ being irrelevant is arguably more problematic than Phil's amazing Sunday. The weather also put a big time hurt on around half the draw and shortened the field even further.

Agree that it'll probably suck for the competitive LIV guys to go back to their joke tour while the rest of the world gets fired up for the real season - especially given how great the year has been already.

If anything this kinda perpetuates more of the love/hate sides of LIV. Even anti-LIV folks like me can admit that the PGA Tour is a better product now because of LIV, and that the battling tours angle made for an even more compelling Masters that saw 2 guys run away from the field. I felt like Mickelson and a few others were able to just kinda forget about the whole "playing for a murderous regime because $$$" thing thanks to the history and comfort of Augusta - it was the first time I've seen Phil look genuinely happy in the past 2 years.

And while LIV can shout that the haters were wrong and their players are still great, will win majors moving forward, yada yada yada - I don't think their irrelevance was ever going to look like all of them missing the cut at the Masters. I think it'll look more like a slow descent to irrelevance for all but a couple guys. Then reality will set in that LIV only seeks to steal what the other tours create, not create players on their own. Actual success would mean up-and-coming new players making a splash in majors or driving interest in their events versus this quasi-Senior tour thing they have going. I see zero progress or future on that front.
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Yes, and the Masters is a different ball of wax. It's played at the same course every year and some of those guys are very knowledgeable of the course and also the horses for courses thing.

Edited to say: What Pilch said
 
guitardeac said:
It hasn't even been a year since these guys left the PGA Tour and schedule. That's nothing. Of course they haven't lost their games - YET.

And one more factor - they are playing without ANY pressure in terms of the paycheck they would receive from The Masters. That takes away some pressure that enters the mind. They are completely carefree. And don't think that didn't enter their minds prior to LIV windfall - it does creep in.
Click to expand...
So LIV compensating players fairly gives their players an advantage. That makes sense.
 
Why is it blood money when the LIV guys receive it but not when the tour does?

progolfweekly.com

Entire PGA Tour Playoffs Sponsored By Saudi Arabia-Allied Brands - Pro Golf Weekly

The PGA Tour has regularly attacked the LIV Golf series for being funded by Saudi Arabia. According to the Tour's allied smear merchants, the checks earned by the likes of Dustin Johnson and Bryson DeChambeau are said to be "blood money." Commissioner Jay Monahan even refuses to call it LIV…
progolfweekly.com progolfweekly.com
 
WFcatamount22 said:
Why is it blood money when the LIV guys receive it but not when the tour does?

progolfweekly.com

Entire PGA Tour Playoffs Sponsored By Saudi Arabia-Allied Brands - Pro Golf Weekly

The PGA Tour has regularly attacked the LIV Golf series for being funded by Saudi Arabia. According to the Tour's allied smear merchants, the checks earned by the likes of Dustin Johnson and Bryson DeChambeau are said to be "blood money." Commissioner Jay Monahan even refuses to call it LIV…
progolfweekly.com progolfweekly.com
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It feels like you could try harder than saying that being sponsored by FedEx = directly taking cash from the government of Saudi Arabia

If you want to go to bat for the LIV guys' PR at least put some effort into it
 
i think being sponsored by companies that do business in Saudi Arabia is a bit different than a State Funded tour.
That being said...i'm pretty damn sure my investment portfolio is littered with organizations and causes that i am morally opposed to and i just don't realize it. Or more honestly, don't care to realize it.
 
Les Grossman said:
I’m not a fan of the LIV tour, but I think it’s absurd they don’t get OWGR points. Their field clearly has some of the world’s best golfers, and if you can perform well in one of their events, then that is certainly worth something. Their points should certainly not be on the same level as the PGA Tour or the DP Tour, but you can’t tell me that winning a LIV event is meaningless when evaluating someone’s golf talent relative to all the other professionals in the world.
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You can't give out OWGR points to a tour that could let you on it tomorrow. There needs to be qualification criteria and LIV has none of that yet.
 
Also the PGA having a designated event the week after the masters is so absurdly stupid. Let the biggest event of the year breathe a little bit.
 
deacfan123 said:
You can't give out OWGR points to a tour that could let you on it tomorrow. There needs to be qualification criteria and LIV has none of that yet.
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Guess that answers my question: does a LIV event have any qualifier for an individual tournament other than being an invited member of the tour? And as a member, do you have to do anything to keep your LIV tour status other than commit to showing u for X number of tournaments?
Assuming "no" to the above any any other qualifying criteria, this thing is nothing but an exhibition and should not include OWGR points.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
That article just explores that sponsors for some PGA events "have a footprint" in Saudi Arabia. The LIV is directly funded Saudi Arabia's Sovereign Wealth Fund.
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It really is comical the lengths to which the LIV bros go to defend the LIV and to deflect any negative comments about either the golf or Saudi Arabia. I would respect them a lot more if they just owned LIV for what it is and admitted that they were fine with it. Just admit that it's about the money, and solely about the money. Instead it turns into a weird discussion about nonsense like the PGA being just as morally bankrupt or about how the LIV golf framework is actually superior to the PGA.
 
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