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Aaron Judge - New HR Champ

DeacsPop said:
Sure let's give the MVP Award to a hitter/pitcher who didn't lead in any of his league's critical batting stats or win their premier pitching award.
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hopefully this perspective continues to phase out because it is so dumb
 
You're a good man, D14. Don't let it go to your head. Backing a winner is not a superiority complex. Just the facts which most on this thread choose to ignore.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
hopefully this perspective continues to phase out because it is so dumb
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Meh. You're correct in the sense that the best pitcher/hitter may not be the one with the best ERA, BA, most HRs, etc. And also that award winning isn't necessarily reflective of who had the best season (although in today's era that's less of a problem than it used to be).

But Judge had a better season than Ohtani, and that's reflected throughout the stats that are available, including the old-school ones and the more advanced ones.
 
I agree that you can make a case for Judge over Ohtani, but not because Ohtani was not number one in any of the big three hitting categories
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
I agree that you can make a case for Judge over Ohtani, but not because Ohtani was not number one in any of the big three hitting categories
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Correct. But he also wasn't number one in any major pitching categories. He was #2 in WAR, and that's his only top 5 finish in any category that I see on bbref's page of 2022 top ten leaders in a variety of pitching/hitting categories.

Edit: just kidding I didn't expand the pitching categories. He was top 5 in K/9 and FIP
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
I agree that you can make a case for Judge over Ohtani, but not because Ohtani was not number one in any of the big three hitting categories
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No he wasn't nor would he need to be. But it would have been nice if he was greater than 4th in ANY hitting category.

HR's (4). Total Bases (5) Runs Created (5) Slugging % (6) On Base Plus Slugging % (6) RBI's. (7) Runs Scored (8)
Hits (>10) Offensive WAR (>10) On Base % (>10)
But wait, he can pitch.
 
Pitching is still valuable, right?
 
The only example I can think of is if you had a top quarterback that also was a top cornerback. It would mean a hell of a lot more with a salary cap but that’s the only other sports with such a positional divide like baseball has between pitchers and the rest. The fact that he exists as a player with those stats should mean MVP.
 
Othani is an above average hitter and an above average pitcher on a below average Team. Because he does both does not in my mind make him MVP unless his performance as compared with others warrant. Unique, sure. Auto MVP, not in my mind.
 
DeacsPop said:
Othani is an above average hitter and an above average pitcher on a below average Team. Because he does both does not in my mind make him MVP unless his performance as compared with others warrant. Unique, sure. Auto MVP, not in my mind.
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He had the 6th best ERA in all of MLB this year. A bit better than above-average.
 
“Above average” is an interesting way to describe him.
 
I actually find it super interesting that so many of you are on board the Ohtani MVP train, because Judge is going to win in a landslide. Although I'm struggling to discern the genuine takes from the Yankees trolling.

Ohtani is amazing, he was a top 5 AL SP. But he was really only a top 10 or so hitter in the AL (along with no defensive value as a DH). Considering the MVP award only goes to pitchers when they are utterly dominant (Kershaw 2014), it seems to make sense to me that it would go to Judge over Ohtani, and MVP voters pretty unanimously agree with that seemingly.
 
But it's the argument against awarding pitchers the MVP that they're not everyday players? Ohtani is an everyday player.
 
deacon14 said:
I actually find it super interesting that so many of you are on board the Ohtani MVP train, because Judge is going to win in a landslide. Although I'm struggling to discern the genuine takes from the Yankees trolling.

Ohtani is amazing, he was a top 5 AL SP. But he was really only a top 10 or so hitter in the AL (along with no defensive value as a DH). Considering the MVP award only goes to pitchers when they are utterly dominant (Kershaw 2014), it seems to make sense to me that it would go to Judge over Ohtani, and MVP voters pretty unanimously agree with that seemingly.
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I think you spelled it out yourself - a top 5 pitcher and top 10-15 hitter seems almost as valuable as it gets to me. I think it is an extremely close call and honestly, would probably go with Judge if I had a vote, but I don't understand anyone who thinks it isn't splitting hairs close.
 
PhDeac said:
But it's the argument against awarding pitchers the MVP that they're not everyday players? Ohtani is an everyday player.
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The argument is historically that there is a separate award for them (Cy Young) which is basically the pitching MVP. It's so hard statistically to compare a SP's impact on a team to a position player that it more or less doesn't get done unless a SP is so dominant they find a way to win the MVP, which almost never happens.

It's yet another reason why Ohtani kind of breaks the system, because the way the awards are set up separates out pitching and hitting more or less, and Ohtani is involved in both conversations.
 
Wakelaw2006 said:
I think you spelled it out yourself - a top 5 pitcher and top 10-15 hitter seems almost as valuable as it gets to me. I think it is an extremely close call and honestly, would probably go with Judge if I had a vote, but I don't understand anyone who thinks it isn't splitting hairs close.
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Well there's a pretty huge gap between top 10-15 hitter and top 1 hitter in the AL this season, but yeah I hear your point. As I stated pages ago on this thread, I'm not upset with anyone that thinks Ohtani should win it, there's a case to be made there.

It's just interesting to me because nearly all the baseball MVP voters (who are mostly legitimate baseball reporters) side on the Judge side of this debate, and seemingly every MLB fan in this thread is on the Ohtani side.
 
deacon14 said:
I actually find it super interesting that so many of you are on board the Ohtani MVP train, because Judge is going to win in a landslide. Although I'm struggling to discern the genuine takes from the Yankees trolling.

Ohtani is amazing, he was a top 5 AL SP. But he was really only a top 10 or so hitter in the AL (along with no defensive value as a DH). Considering the MVP award only goes to pitchers when they are utterly dominant (Kershaw 2014), it seems to make sense to me that it would go to Judge over Ohtani, and MVP voters pretty unanimously agree with that seemingly.
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I don't think anyone would be as defensive about Ohtani if this was how the conversation followed. It's not surprising that folks are digging in when it's said that Ohtani is only an above average player and to say otherwise is irrational Yankee hate. I'm going to argue it at this point because it is such an absurd, dismissive take.
 
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