Ari Stewart and J.T. Terrell finally get a coach fired

[Strickland33]

So, is there any basis, at all whatsoever, to support [Redacted]'s handling of players outside of bad information (all of which has been debunked) and a misunderstanding of NCAA rules?

That's pretty damning, BuzzIn. It seems to me that Jeff [Redacted] and Ari Stewart come out looking just about the same in terms of decency...

 

[RacerDeac]

What's funny to me is if we were out of scholarships and had a 5* that wanted to come here, I'd bet quite a few of the, scholarships should be for 4 years crew, would be more than willing to offer up the head of the kids at the end of the bench.

Not me. That's a bullshit move by any college coach.

There wasn't any outrage here when we declined to not offer Cameron Stanley a 5th year, that I recall (I know not exactly the same but I believe it was our choice and not his).

Not even close to the same situation as letting sophomores go without so much as an explanation as Buzz did at CO. 4 years is the "commitment" I would expect as a student-athlete going to college.

 

[thedeacfan]

That's basically what Larry Brown did in his first week on the job at SMU. He held player evaluations and decided to not renew the scholarships of 4 or 5 players from the previous season's 13-18 team, including the returning starting PG. Half way through this season they've already won 11 games.

What's funny to me is if we were out of scholarships and had a 5* that wanted to come here, I'd bet quite a few of the, scholarships should be for 4 years crew, would be more than willing to offer up the head of the kids at the end of the bench.

You can't have it both ways, schools are 'expected' not required to let players out of their LOI's when there is a coaching change. The schools don't have to do it and if the kid wants to leave he has to wait 2 years. But other than some schools saying 'well let you out' but you can't go to certain schools (which seems to usually involve some sort of 'tampering') it rarely if ever happens.

I wouldn't make it a regular practice of not renewing scholarships, but I'd much rather have the kids understanding it's a possibility.

There wasn't any outrage here when we declined to not offer Cameron Stanley a 5th year, that I recall (I know not exactly the same but I believe it was our choice and not his).

Technical question - If a school does not renew a players scholarship, does the player still have to sit out a year before he can play for another team?

 

[Strickland33]

Not even close to the same situation as letting sophomores go without so much as an explanation as Buzz did at CO. 4 years is the "commitment" I would expect as a student-athlete going to college.

And, like you mentioned earlier, [Redacted] basically told Xavier Silas to leave. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that. Silas is a good kid, from an NBA family (what's up, Miles Overton!), and who remade himself at Northern Illinois and has had a few cups of coffee with the 76ers.

 

[RacerDeac]

And, like you mentioned earlier, [Redacted] basically told Xavier Silas to leave. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that. Silas is a good kid, from an NBA family (what's up, Miles Overton!), and who remade himself at Northern Illinois and has had a few cups of coffee with the 76ers.

None of which would have happened if Bz hadn't told him to pack his bags! He owes is all to Coach Bz!!!! Like everything else Bz touches, they become successful once he is gone...poor guy is just never there to enjoy the spoils of all his hard work as he moves on to the next "mess." :laugh:

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

I can't believe anyone's defending Bzz's roster turnover, since it's possibly the most egregious part of his tenure here.

 

[IrishSlim]

This is a ridiculous assertion.

Plenty of players genuinely do not want to put the work in. The idea that every player "believes" they're working hard but in reality some are and some aren't is laughable.

I can't even get my head around the idea that someone could actually believe this.

I hate when people do the "have you spent time around jocks?" thing but ... well, have you?

 

[CHillDeac]

Technical question - If a school does not renew a players scholarship, does the player still have to sit out a year before he can play for another team?

I did a quick search and found that the SMU PG that Brown released from scholarship didn't have to sit out a season and is now playing for another D-1 school.

 

[w84it]

I can understand lots of roster turnover in the first year of a new HC - some players and some coaches just don't fit together in terms of personality, style of play, etc. It doesn't mean that I like it, but I understand it more.

What rubs me about Bzz is the number of players who transferred out after year one and then the number of guys who transferred again after year two.

 

[Deac83]

Well, from the limited information, Bzz not elaborating and Silas claiming it came out of the blue (despite being benched and Bzz saying the benching was related to effort in practice) it leaves a lot of room for speculation.

Given that Silas had enough talent to make the NBA, people should be clear that he pulled a scholarship on a pretty good player, not some scrub at the end of the bench he was trying to recruit over (I think some of the statement above imply this guy was not a good player).

Link

I'd have to say there is more here than is public knowledge. I'm sure Silas is not going to come out and say he was doing anything detrimental to the team when he's looking for a new school.

I hate being in a position to sound like I'm defending Bzz, but at the same time I'm trying to look a the facts.

- Silas a good player gets kicked out
- Colo needed good players
- neither side is divulging any information
- Silas was benched prior to this so it was not all good between them
- bzz comes to wake has, Ty and Tabb
- multiple suspensions
- multiple chances
- why weren't these guys booted earlier?

If people really want to debate it's really these guys they should be talking about "Guards James Inge and Kal Bay, and centers Sean Kowal and Marc Van Burck lost their scholarships before the 2007-08 season began."

 

[Strickland33]

If people really want to debate it's really these guys they should be talking about "Guards James Inge and Kal Bay, and centers Sean Kowal and Marc Van Burck lost their scholarships before the 2007-08 season began."

They have been mentioned many times before, 83. I was bringing up Silas because he is 1) a good kid, 2) has NBA blood, and 3) made the league anyway because he worked his tail off. 1), 2), and 3) are allegedly endemic to [Redacted]'s culture, which makes Silas's even more curious of a case.

 

[RacerDeac]

I can understand lots of roster turnover in the first year of a new HC - some players and some coaches just don't fit together in terms of personality, style of play, etc. It doesn't mean that I like it, but I understand it more.

What rubs me about Bzz is the number of players who transferred out after year one and then the number of guys who transferred again after year two.

How about players that don't even request a transfer? The coach just tells them to leave. I understand turnover for a new coach, but it should always be in the hands of the player to determine he wants to go and not a coach's decision to simply push a player out. And while I understand turnover, I don't understand 5 in his first year at CO and 8.5 (Travis being the .5) in two years at Wake.

And it's not just the numbers, but Fields, a guy Bz specifically recruited left as well. "His guy" just peaced out after spending a year with him because Bz was walking around pimping CMM in front of TC and Fields.

 

[w84it]

How about players that don't even request a transfer? The coach just tells them to leave. I understand turnover for a new coach, but it should always be in the hands of the player to determine he wants to go and not a coach's decision to simply push a player out. And while I understand turnover, I don't understand 5 in his first year at CO and 8.5 (Travis being the .5) in two years at Wake.

And it's not just the numbers, but Fields, a guy Bz specifically recruited left as well. "His guy" just peaced out after spending a year with him because Bz was walking around pimping CMM in front of TC and Fields.

I understand what you're saying, but is telling a player that they're not getting their scholarship renewed any worse than having a player the coach doesn't like stick around and get mistreated until he does transfer? I don't like it either way, but I'd much rather something like that be an up-front process than to only find out that a coach doesn't like me, isn't going to use me, and is going to make my experience bad only after its too late for me to enroll at another school.

 

[RacerDeac]

I understand what you're saying, but is telling a player that they're not getting their scholarship renewed any worse than having a player the coach doesn't like stick around and get mistreated until he does transfer? I don't like it either way, but I'd much rather something like that be an up-front process than to only find out that a coach doesn't like me, isn't going to use me, and is going to make my experience bad only after its too late for me to enroll at another school.

Both are bullshit and shouldn't ever be tolerated from a Wake Forest coach.

 

[WPDeac]

I did a quick search and found that the SMU PG that Brown released from scholarship didn't have to sit out a season and is now playing for another D-1 school.

And interestingly, Xavier Silas sat out the year after he transferred to Northern Illinois. Knowing the NCAA, I am sure there are some crazy rules governing this buried deep in some codified document...

 

[DCDeac]

I hate when people do the "have you spent time around jocks?" thing but ... well, have you?

Played AAU ball throughout high school and had a Division 3 spot if I'd passed on Wake. I was never under any delusions that it was worth my time to try to squeak my way onto the bench of a bad college team, but yes I've been around a lot of basketball. Actually one of my favorite things about Wake was running in the players' games on the main court at Reynolds. I once did a 2 hour shoot-around with O'Kelly. He had a drill on his own that he'd shoot like 20 3's, then sprint to the baseline, hit the floor, and sprint back to the elbow for a jumper and do it 10 times. I couldn't get through it twice and still hit shots, he went 19/20 from 3 on his last run.

It's not a mystery who works hard and who doesn't. Not to the players or to the coaches.

 

[IrishSlim]

Played AAU ball throughout high school and had a Division 3 spot if I'd passed on Wake. I was never under any delusions that it was worth my time to try to squeak my way onto the bench of a bad college team, but yes I've been around a lot of basketball. Actually one of my favorite things about Wake was running in the players' games on the main court at Reynolds. I once did a 2 hour shoot-around with O'Kelly. He had a drill on his own that he'd shoot like 20 3's, then sprint to the baseline, hit the floor, and sprint back to the elbow for a jumper and do it 10 times. I couldn't get through it twice and still hit shots, he went 19/20 from 3 on his last run.

It's not a mystery who works hard and who doesn't. Not to the players or to the coaches.

Very cool story.

Again, I'm not claiming that objectively there's not a huge difference in some players' work ethics. That's clear, on any level of sports. But to insinuate that some players (even POSs) "genuinely don't want to play hard" or whatever, like Schwabber did, is crazy talk. Some of the facts about some of Dino's recruits no longer here are damning enough. No need to claim that they never wanted to try hard on top of it.

 

[w84it]

Both are bullshit and shouldn't ever be tolerated from a Wake Forest coach.

That's certainly a position that I can respect

 

[DCDeac]

Very cool story.

Again, I'm not claiming that objectively there's not a huge difference in some players' work ethics. That's clear, on any level of sports. But to insinuate that some players (even POSs) "genuinely don't want to play hard" or whatever, like Schwabber did, is crazy talk. Some of the facts about some of Dino's recruits no longer here are damning enough. No need to claim that they never wanted to try hard on top of it.

I get your point... It's just that I definitely ran into plenty of players who genuinely didn't want to play hard. I mean, we had two guys my senior year who were getting looks. One ended up on the Panthers in the NFL, the other didn't even get through one semester of college. Identical guys starting off their final year of college - one just didn't like the weight room, was routinely late to practices, took plays off all the time. You have his parents and coaches laying it all out in front of him that he could have a full ride to Ga Tech (lots of Harpring comparisons because he abused him in high school) and he just didn't like the life. Didn't even bother him that much when he washed out. It was like he saw it and said, "oh, that's what it takes? No thanks..."

I think it's more common than you're making it sound.

 

[sailordeac]

There is really no way for us on the outside to know who practices and works hard and who does not. We only have the games to judge play and improvement. Mostly, people here are speculating.