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At least 172 Palestinians killed, 1,280 injured, UN says 77% are civilians

DeacMan said:
I presume that means you also conclude it wasn't an errant Israeli projectile as well and also are able to conclude it wasn't a purposeful strike by Hamas itself. We are, afterall, talking about a group that claims to represent the interests of Muslims but has still launched 12,000 projectiles at a country with a population that is 1/8th Muslim.
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... and knows that their attacks will result in Israeli retaliation which will undoubtedly kill more Muslim civilians.
 
DeacMan said:
I presume that means you also conclude it wasn't an errant Israeli projectile as well and also are able to conclude it wasn't a purposeful strike by Hamas itself. We are, afterall, talking about a group that claims to represent the interests of Muslims but has still launched 12,000 projectiles at a country with a population that is 1/8th Muslim.
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lol deacman bein' deacman
 
DeacMan said:
I presume that means you also conclude it wasn't an errant Israeli projectile as well and also are able to conclude it wasn't a purposeful strike by Hamas itself. We are, afterall, talking about a group that claims to represent the interests of Muslims but has still launched 12,000 projectiles at a country with a population that is 1/8th Muslim.
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Israel has said they will target schools, so them hitting this school knowing the exact location is not a reach.

Hamas is not launching rockets into their own territory. They are evil; not stupid.



If it is shown that Israel shelled that school on purpose, would you have a problem with that? Would you consider that going too far?
 
KickballDeac said:
Every Person Killed in the Gaza Conflict this Month: Five ways to visualize the human toll
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nfOXr.jpg
 
The Mangler said:
... and knows that their attacks will result in Israeli retaliation which will undoubtedly kill more Muslim civilians.
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Israel knows that their attacks will result in Hamas retaliation which could very possibly lead to the death of other Israeli civilians.


What a silly argument.
 
deacvision7 said:
Israel knows that their attacks will result in Hamas retaliation which could very possibly lead to the death of other Israeli civilians.


What a silly argument.
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I'm pretty sure Israel thinks that the rockets would still be coming without their retaliation. Personally I think they're correct.
 
deacvision7 said:
Israel has said they will target schools, so them hitting this school knowing the exact location is not a reach.

Hamas is not launching rockets into their own territory. They are evil; not stupid.



If it is shown that Israel shelled that school on purpose, would you have a problem with that? Would you consider that going too far?
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I think this is not correct. When Israeli ground troops enter Gaza, as they have done, Hamas launches missiles in their general direction. The speculation is that is what may have happened here.
 
Do we really think that the Qassam rockets were what caused the damage at the school? Laughable IMO. You can barely aim them.
 
The Mangler said:
I'm pretty sure Israel thinks that the rockets would still be coming without their retaliation. Personally I think they're correct.
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Hamas could just as easily think the same thing, as I highly doubt they trust Israel much. Afterall, for the 2012 ceasefire Israel said that they would open border crossings. Israel never did.


The truce – announced in Cairo by Egypt's foreign minister, Mohamed Kamel Amr, and the US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton – also included a pledge to open border crossings.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/21/gaza-ceasefire-announced-cairo
 
deacvision7 said:
Israel has said they will target schools, so them hitting this school knowing the exact location is not a reach.

Hamas is not launching rockets into their own territory. They are evil; not stupid.



If it is shown that Israel shelled that school on purpose, would you have a problem with that? Would you consider that going too far?
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Wait, Israel has said they are going to target schools? I presume you meant to put a "not" in front of that word.

And Hamas is launching rockets into their own territory. They launch rockets from their own territory every single day. And they know full well some of them won't work as planned and will land in Gaza or elsewhere. Never mind the fact they launch these rockets from populated buildings and areas. I'm sure I'd be less than thrilled if the local Southwest High School pep. club decided it would be a swell idea to attack the Washburn High School neighborhoods by launching rockets directly over my house. But that's how Hamas rolls. Because part of being evil means caring a lot more about destroying Israel than improving the lives of your own people. Part of being evil means having leaders who are multi-millionaires while Gaza is one of the poorest places on earth. It means not supporting democracy in any form. It means never accepting a two state solution. Part of being evil means rejecting a proposed ceasefire the Israelis were willing to accept. Part of being evil means ignoring a 5 hour truce and using that time to launch dozens of added rockets at Israel. Part of being evil means ignoring the fact Israel occupied Gaza, striking a deal to get them to leave and then more or less immediately commencing hostilities against Israel by launching rockets towards them.

War sucks. Civilians die in wars. This is a war. One side is taking steps to try and avoid civilian casualties. The other wants everyone on the other side dead even if they purport to support 1/8th of the people on the other side.
 
Deacon923 said:
I think this is not correct. When Israeli ground troops enter Gaza, as they have done, Hamas launches missiles in their general direction. The speculation is that is what may have happened here.
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Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part. Hamas is not aiming and shooting their rockets at known locations of Palestinian civilians within Gaza.

I won't rule out that an errant rocket hit the school, although I do think it being an Israeli shell is the more plausible scenario of the two, but I flatly reject the notion that Hamas could have done it intentionally, which is what DeacMan suggested in his post.
 
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DeacMan said:
Wait, Israel has said they are going to target schools? I presume you meant to put a "not" in front of that word.

And Hamas is launching rockets into their own territory. They launch rockets from their own territory every single day. And they know full well some of them won't work as planned and will land in Gaza or elsewhere. Never mind the fact they launch these rockets from populated buildings and areas. I'm sure I'd be less than thrilled if the local Southwest High School pep. club decided it would be a swell idea to attack the Washburn High School neighborhoods by launching rockets directly over my house. But that's how Hamas rolls. Because part of being evil means caring a lot more about destroying Israel than improving the lives of your own people. Part of being evil means having leaders who are multi-millionaires while Gaza is one of the poorest places on earth. It means not supporting democracy in any form. It means never accepting a two state solution. Part of being evil means rejecting a proposed ceasefire the Israelis were willing to accept. Part of being evil means ignoring a 5 hour truce and using that time to launch dozens of added rockets at Israel. Part of being evil means ignoring the fact Israel occupied Gaza, striking a deal to get them to leave and then more or less immediately commencing hostilities against Israel by launching rockets towards them.

War sucks. Civilians die in wars. This is a war. One side is taking steps to try and avoid civilian casualties. The other wants everyone on the other side dead even if they purport to support 1/8th of the people on the other side.
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Ok, I'll take these one one at a time, I suppose.

Wait, Israel has said they are going to target schools? I presume you meant to put a "not" in front of that word.
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No, I typed out what I meant to type out.

IDF ✔ @IDFSpokesperson
Last night, we told Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UNRWA's shelter in Beit Hanoun btw 10 am & 2 pm. UNRWA & Red Cross got the message.



And Hamas is launching rockets into their own territory. They launch rockets from their own territory every single day. And they know full well some of them won't work as planned and will land in Gaza or elsewhere.
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(I'll just repost what I said in response to 923:

Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part. Hamas is not aiming and shooting their rockets at known locations of Palestinian civilians within Gaza.

I won't rule out that an errant rocket hit the school, although I do think it being an Israeli shell is the more plausible scenario of the two, but I flatly reject the notion that Hamas could have done it intentionally, which is what DeacMan suggested in his post.

But that's how Hamas rolls. Because part of being evil means caring a lot more about destroying Israel than improving the lives of your own people. Part of being evil means having leaders who are multi-millionaires while Gaza is one of the poorest places on earth. It means not supporting democracy in any form. It means never accepting a two state solution.
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Hamas are evil fucktards. I'm not sure that is the barometer that Israel should hold itself up against and then say, "yeah, but, those guys are totes worse than us!"

Part of being evil means rejecting a proposed ceasefire the Israelis were willing to accept. Part of being evil means ignoring a 5 hour truce and using that time to launch dozens of added rockets at Israel. Part of being evil means ignoring the fact Israel occupied Gaza, striking a deal to get them to leave and then more or less immediately commencing hostilities against Israel by launching rockets towards them.
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And what should Hamas think about the ceasefire from 2012 where Israel said they would open up border crossings but never did? Which prevented the dire living conditions in Gaza from improving.

One side is taking steps to try and avoid civilian casualties.
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Saying, "move from this pile of rubble to that other building that will be a pile of rubble tomorrow" isn't really taking honest steps towards trying to avoid civilian casualties. It is just throwing out an empty phrase that you can then trumpet as your own propaganda when civilian casualties inevitably pile up.

Hamas does propaganda. And so does Israel.

DeacMan said:
Uh, there's an enormous fucking difference between keeping a border closed and throwing explosives at populated areas without impunity.
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True. One potentially leads to a quick, violent death. The other potentially leads to a slow, drawn out horrible death from malnutrition, lack of proper medical supplies, unsafe drinking water, and toxic waste on the shores.

Enormous fucking difference.



And again, and I can't believe that people have to keep saying this to the Israel apologists... but HAMAS IS EVIL. I do not support them at all.

But that does not absolve Israel of their own wrong doings in this horrible conflict.
 
How do we square "Israel cares about civilian casualties" with the IDF firing flechette rounds in urban settings, again?
 
We're all clearly upset about the current conditions of Gaza citizens during this conflict, having said that, what responsibility do they themselves take for their own predicament, having "democratically" elected Hamas over the (relatively) peace seeking Fateh?
 
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It doesn't seem like there was any widespread corruption. From the Carter Center, this seems to be the most serious type of issue:

"Significant issues were noted by international and Palestinian nonpartisan election observers concerning use of Palestinian Authority resources for the benefit of Fateh and campaigning in a significant number of mosques for Hamas candidates. Public resources, including government funds, vehicles, communications equipment, materials and work hours of government officials and employees belong to the Palestinian people and should not be used for the benefit of individual parties or candidates. The lack of a clear and enforceable regulatory framework for campaign activities and financing undermines public trust. At the same time, use of religious facilities to benefit individual parties and candidates runs counter to standards for democratic elections and is counter to Palestinian law and the political party code of conduct."
 
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