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BBall Recruiting Thread 2k19 - Charles Coleman de-commits to Wake. :(

Hard to believe Wake fans still undervalue coaching. Good coaches get better than expected results and recruits come. Players want to be coached by good coaches.

Good recruiters that are otherwise poor coaches run out of players rather quickly. That is where Wake is currently.

We can blow smoke up each others asses or we can be realistic. Manning has been abysmal at all areas of coaching except recruiting.

I think it does matter at least a little bit whether or not we continue to support the current situation. Even tone deaf leaders get the message if they have no support at all. Wellman sees some support and that is all he will ever need to not admit his failure.

I have tried to post less lately since complaints of negativity abound. Just wanted to let Wrangor and ilk now that life is quite good with the exception of the little passion I have for Wake. That passion is hard to kill but I do find myself caring less and less about wake sports and to some degree watching sports in general.
 
knowell said:
Hard to believe Wake fans still undervalue coaching. Good coaches get better than expected results and recruits come. Players want to be coached by good coaches.
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If anything Wake fans should know the opposite. The net is swimming in stories about [Redacted] and his incredible basketball mind, how NBA players love his tenacity and work ethic, and how his "genius" is responsible for putting the Rockets in the NBA championship hunt.

But he came here, failed to do anything about the ticking time bomb of the inbound class, then essentially took a year off recruiting. Wake fans were sold the "coaching over talent" myth that's being re-sold now, proper sock wearing over one-and-done players, etc... By the time any signs of "coaching up" the moderately decent Codi/Devin recruiting class had appeared the fans were hoisting billboards and about to burn him at the stake. Remember the "[Redacted] coaches, Battle recruits" plan? Everyone still adores Battle and [Redacted] is the antichrist.

There's a reason more programs with a stream of future NBA players consistently win compared to the Wisconsin's of the world, and why the boards ridicule Roy Williams as an awful game coach while watching him win multiple Championships. It's a thousand times easier to win with good recruiting and bad coaching than it is the other way around.
 
Wake fans were sold "coaching over talent" with [Redacted]. You were one of the few people who thought [Redacted] was actually going to be a good coach.

Wake has had plenty of talent. But we haven't had a great coach.
 
when are we going to get this great recruiter for our basketball program that brings in tons of future NBA players?

sounds like a lot of fun, I can't wait
 
Deaconblue said:
Talent is paramount in the upper echelons of college basketball today. Conventional wisdom is that it takes three NBA caliber players, with at least one a starter, plus a couple of Euro-league level talent guys to be a serious contender for the NCAA title.

Winning the ACC regular season requires about the same. Top half ACC finish requires at least two NBA quality players.
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Buzz Williams has shown that you don't need NBA level talent to compete in the ACC. Brownell did the same this past year as well.
 
PhDeac said:
So if I offered you the choice between Brad Stevens as head coach for the next 4 years or the next 4 recruiting classes ranked the same as Duke's last 4 recruiting classes and Manning stays, people would take the latter?
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Yes, absolutely I'd take the talent - assuming the talent that Stevens would have to work with would be similar to what we have had recently.

PhDeac said:
No. Just no. Just because you don't understand what somebody says you can't just claim it was "vague." Nothing I said changed. Sadly, I had to explain it in more detail because you couldn't understand it.
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I don't know why I bother because we all know you are undepheated, but, what you said before and what you are saying now is different.
You said "If I had to choose coaching or talent, I choose coaching every time." That very clearly implies that you would take a better coach with worse talent over a worse coach with better talent. There is no other way to interpret it. If you meant to include the concept that a better coach would bring in better talent, which is what you say now, then that is not a choice between coaching OR talent - that would be a pointless comparison between a better coach AND better talent (because the better coach would bring it in) and a worse coach with, what, worse talent? That makes no sense.

Go on trying to convince us or yourself but we all know what you meant - or rather, what you said.
 
scooter84 said:
Yes, absolutely I'd take the talent - assuming the talent that Stevens would have to work with would be similar to what we have had recently.



I don't know why I bother because we all know you are undepheated, but, what you said before and what you are saying now is different.
You said "If I had to choose coaching or talent, I choose coaching every time." That very clearly implies that you would take a better coach with worse talent over a worse coach with better talent. There is no other way to interpret it. If you meant to include the concept that a better coach would bring in better talent, which is what you say now, then that is not a choice between coaching OR talent - that would be a pointless comparison between a better coach AND better talent (because the better coach would bring it in) and a worse coach with, what, worse talent? That makes no sense.

Go on trying to convince us or yourself but we all know what you meant - or rather, what you said.
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Exactly. Thank you.
 
DCDeac said:
If anything Wake fans should know the opposite. The net is swimming in stories about [Redacted] and his incredible basketball mind, how NBA players love his tenacity and work ethic, and how his "genius" is responsible for putting the Rockets in the NBA championship hunt.

But he came here, failed to do anything about the ticking time bomb of the inbound class, then essentially took a year off recruiting. Wake fans were sold the "coaching over talent" myth that's being re-sold now, proper sock wearing over one-and-done players, etc... By the time any signs of "coaching up" the moderately decent Codi/Devin recruiting class had appeared the fans were hoisting billboards and about to burn him at the stake. Remember the "[Redacted] coaches, Battle recruits" plan? Everyone still adores Battle and [Redacted] is the antichrist.

There's a reason more programs with a stream of future NBA players consistently win compared to the Wisconsin's of the world, and why the boards ridicule Roy Williams as an awful game coach while watching him win multiple Championships. It's a thousand times easier to win with good recruiting and bad coaching than it is the other way around.
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BZ could not coach college basketball. Against Stetson, he had the better talent at each position and on the bench. What a disaster. Things did not get any better.

Coaching matters a lot more in college basketball than in the NBA. You have a quite limited time to teach a system, work on players weaknesses, inspire kids to play with greater intensity than they ever have before.

Use that time poorly and do not develop chemistry or inspire passion and you have the last 9 years of Wake basketball.
 
Just for historical perspective on the talent level at Wake, there are 21 seasons in the internet archives, going back to the 1997-1998 season and including 2017-2018.
In 6 (unless I get surprised by somebody in the season just finished) of those seasons the Wake roster did not include a single future NBA player.
In 9 seasons there was just one future NBA guy.
Four seasons Wake had two future NBA players - 00, 01 and 02 when Josh Howard and Darius Songaila played together and 2010 when Ish and AFA were on the team.
One season (2007-2008) Wake had three - Ish, JJ and Teague.
One season (2008-2009) Wake had four - Ish, Teague, JJ and AFA. And that was a really good team.
 
BBall Recruiting Thread 2k19 - Grad Transfers Ikenna Smart and Torry Johnson to Wake!

We have had these coaching over talent discussions in real life. Keep a poor coach to keep a good recruiting class or fire the poor coach in hopes of getting a good coach at the risk of losing the good recruits?

The assumption that a hypothetical college coach would not recruit players is weird. scooter, even in your answer you only assume Stevens is starting with lesser talent. You don’t assume he can’t recruit.
 
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Deaconblue said:
Just for historical perspective on the talent level at Wake, there are 21 seasons in the internet archives, going back to the 1997-1998 season and including 2017-2018.
In 6 (unless I get surprised by somebody in the season just finished) of those seasons the Wake roster did not include a single future NBA player.
In 9 seasons there was just one future NBA guy.
Four seasons Wake had two future NBA players - 00, 01 and 02 when Josh Howard and Darius Songaila played together and 2010 when Ish and AFA were on the team.
One season (2007-2008) Wake had three - Ish, JJ and Teague.
One season (2008-2009) Wake had four - Ish, Teague, JJ and AFA. And that was a really good team.
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Knock yourself out

http://danbock.net/bball/
 
WFUWaldo said:
Really, you have that control? Nice to meet you Ron.
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The only thing dumb is people who sit by and are complacent as the basketball program gets burned to the ground. If we have four years of proof that Manning can’t coach, sitting around thinking that maybe in year five he puts it together is insanity. I hate to go all DR, but you and a fan base of people like you is why our basketball program will spend at least a decade in the gutter. There is no other fanbase in the ACC that would stand for what has happened to our basketball program so in that sense we deserve what we have received.
 
WFcatamount22 said:
The only thing dumb is people who sit by and are complacent as the basketball program gets burned to the ground. If we have four years of proof that Manning can’t coach, sitting around thinking that maybe in year five he puts it together is insanity. I hate to go all DR, but you and a fan base of people like you is why our basketball program will spend at least a decade in the gutter. There is no other fanbase in the ACC that would stand for what has happened to our basketball program so in that sense we deserve what we have received.
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I mean, we've almost spent a decade in the gutter at this point. If the Dino haters really think he was that bad, then we have definitely spent a decade in the gutter. I never really know what that group is trying to say because they bend over backwards to defend Manning and [Redacted] when they started calling for Dino's head after his second year.
 
Two good pieces from Les yesterday...

On Buchanan: https://247sports.com/college/wake-forest/Article/Wake-Forest-Basketball-spot-dream-come-true-for-Blake-Buchanan--118114829

Didn't know that both of his parents work for Duke. Blake sounds like a sharp kid who understands the opportunity he's getting.

On Smart: https://247sports.com/college/wake-forest/Article/Buffalo-grad-transfer-Ikenna-Smart-brings-experience-maturity-to-Wake-Forest-Basketball--118105902

Geez... The guy from the Niagara Gazette with a lot of backhanded compliments. Definitely sounds like Smart is a ~10mpg guy and no more... Which is fine.

Thanks for the write-ups, Les! Nice work.
 
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