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Bobknightfan's Take on GT Game

Butler is a bad example. They had two and dones for both their Final 4s. You need talent to win, crossing your fingers that you're going to find a Gordon Hayward is much less likely to work than going after a Harry Giles.
 
bobknightfan said:
DCDeac owns this thread....and it has nothing at all to do with defending [Redacted] or recruiting 1 & 2-star players. He has made valid point after valid point....and for some unfathomable reason, some people think that not foolishly spending all your recruiting capital chasing pie-in-the-sky 5-star recruits whom you have only a small chance of getting in the first place...and are going to quickly leave even if you do....rather than concentrating on solid 3 & 4-star recruits who are mostly going to stay means you have to go after Ivy League players.

This is the way that many mid-major programs have risen to such lofty levels in recent years. As DC said, those programs aren't chasing those 5-star recruits. St Louis last year was a good example. Butler & VCU are other good examples. And teams like that are consistently beating a majority of the teams in the major conferences. WF should form a blueprint for success like those schools. It far better fits our situation than trying to emulate the Kentuckys of college basketball.
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God there is so much dumb in this post. First of all, of course mid-major programs would bring in 5-stars if they could, but they can't, and that is why they are mid-majors. Those teams sometimes make runs occasionally with very veteran teams of well-coached over-achievers, and that is not the norm. That will not work in a power conference. It just won't. Also, no one is saying we should waste all our time trying to get recruits we can't get. We used to get those players, you just didn't like them. The obvious answer is to get a mix of 4/3* with some 5* studs thrown in and there you have it.

Once again, sort of like Bobby Knight's '81 Championship team, and most other recent Championship teams I can think of.
 
DCDeac said:
Ugh. More garbage from you and pathetic personal shots.

1) If you didn't notice Stephens and Shaka built programs capable of recruiting 5 star talent, you're an idiot who apparently hasn't paid any attention to the last decade of college basketball. Plus UVA is not a mid-major.
2) If you'd read anything about those coaches, you'd know they both specifically target particular types of players and avoid one-and-dones.

I mean, talking up the 2006 team as a defense of this plan is about as laughable as it gets. I love that you guys mock "moral victories" now but throw them out as "playing the champs close" or some ranking we achieved for one whole week in the middle of a zero postseason win campaign as excellent measures of our past "success."

Moral victories are for losers. 16 straight postseason appearances is a basketball program. You see "no need" to return to that strategy? Fine. I disagree. Go back to name calling like usual, done with this nonsense.
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WFU Lurker said:
Butler is a bad example. They had two and dones for both their Final 4s. You need talent to win, crossing your fingers that you're going to find a Gordon Hayward is much less likely to work than going after a Harry Giles.
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Oops.
 
Turd Ferguson said:
Oops.
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And they were considered highly sought after one-and-dones when they were recruited? Or were they 3/4 stars who simply played their way to the league in two years.

I forgot, now comes the part where you twist my argument into something I'm not arguing and hurl insults to feel superior.

Saying Stephens couldn't land 5 star talent at Butler after what he accomplished there is laughable. You're really showing your ignorance of college basketball here.

Again, UVA. If you think we're going to consistently beat out Duke, UNC, and Syracuse for 5 star talent in the ACC to the point that we can build a year-over-year program that wins in the postseason, well I hope you lead the coaching search that can make that happen.

I also hope you donate about $50 million to the athletic department to make it happen.
 
DCDeac said:
And they were considered highly sought after one-and-dones when they were recruited? Or were they 3/4 stars who simply played their way to the league in two years.

I forgot, now comes the part where you twist my argument into something I'm not arguing and hurl insults to feel superior.

Saying Stephens couldn't land 5 star talent at Butler after what he accomplished there is laughable. You're really showing your ignorance of college basketball here.

Again, UVA. If you think we're going to consistently beat out Duke, UNC, and Syracuse for 5 star talent in the ACC to the point that we can build a year-over-year program that wins in the postseason, well I hope you lead the coaching search that can make that happen.

I also hope you donate about $50 million to the athletic department to make it happen.
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Ha ha, pot meet kettle. Anyway, you build more strawmen than a State grad. No one is saying we should out-recruit Duke and 'Cuse, just that we should recruit better than we have been, and not take the approach of avoiding 5* talent just because they might leave early. As long as they are character guys who work hard, why not? And you keep using Stevens and Butler against yourself. So Stevens recruited better than mid-major talent to be successful. Fine. Maybe we should, too.
 
All of the most successful teams have some NBA talent, including teams that went on magical runs like Butler.

Our most successful teams were all led by players with NBA talent. RR, Duncan, CP3, etc.

You try and get the most talented players possible. If you want to argue that WFU shouldn't waste its time going after the top 5 or 10 players in any given class, I would disagree, but that is a somewhat reasonable argument at least. To argue against pursuing players top tier players that might go pro early if they live up to their ranking/potential is LOWF at its finest.

You need talent to win. Period.
 
bobknightfan said:
I think that Tony Bennett is already using this approach at Virginia.....and it is working very well for him. With the right coach, it would work very well for Wake Forest, too.
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I agree we should have hired Tony Bennett.
 
Go look at who Tony Bennett has been and is continuing to make offers to. It includes a shit ton to top shelf talent.

I'm done with this thread. If the fact that bkf agrees with him hasn't convinced DC that he's wrong, nothing will.
 
ibleedgoldandblack said:
Go look at who Tony Bennett has been and is continuing to make offers to. It includes a shit ton to top shelf talent.

I'm done with this thread. If the fact that bkf agrees with him hasn't convinced DC that he's wrong, nothing will.
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That's where I'm at.

I'll continue reading for the laughs though.
 
Turd Ferguson said:
Ha ha, pot meet kettle. Anyway, you build more strawmen than a State grad. No one is saying we should out-recruit Duke and 'Cuse, just that we should recruit better than we have been, and not take the approach of avoiding 5* talent just because they might leave early. As long as they are character guys who work hard, why not? And you keep using Stevens and Butler against yourself. So Stevens recruited better than mid-major talent to be successful. Fine. Maybe we should, too.
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Stephens had teams ranked top 5 pre-season and you're saying he was incapable of drawing 5 star talent. That's an ignorant statement if you followed recruiting during that run. Not the same thing as calling people dumb or idiot and all this other nonsense.

Second, Butler did not have two 2-and-dones. Mack played 3 years. And both Hayward and Mack were 3 star recruits. Stephens didn't waste his time chasing 5 star guys being recruited by the top 10 destinations schools in college basketball. Even when he went to a Final Four, was thought of as one of the best coaches in college basketball and got a pre-season top 5 ranking across the board he didn't waste his time doing that.

It's hard for me to imagine a better recruiter for Wake than Skip, and he got Paul because he was committed at age 10. But we're going to find a better recruiter than Skip to finally start landing top 30 guys? And until we do that it's hopeless to compete? Not buying it.

Nobody's saying we should avoid NBA talent. Darius was NBA talent. Josh Howard was NBA talent. Ish was NBA Talent. Those are the kind of glue guys that lead to long-term program success at a place like Wake along with that next tier of borderline guys like Eric Williams, Taron, Codi, etc. Build that first, and if a Chris Paul falls in your lap take advantage of it.

Or start dropping names of coaches we can hire that are going to pull three 5-stars in over the next couple years at Wake...
 
I misremembered on Mack. Apologies.

That he and Hayward were recruited as 3 stars is completely missing the point. Recruiting 3 stars and hoping they are actually 5 stars is a doomed approach. Doomed. That's what we've been doing, and it isn't working and won't work.
 
DCDeac said:
Stephens had teams ranked top 5 pre-season and you're saying he was incapable of drawing 5 star talent. That's an ignorant statement if you followed recruiting during that run. Not the same thing as calling people dumb or idiot and all this other nonsense.

Second, Butler did not have two 2-and-dones. Mack played 3 years. And both Hayward and Mack were 3 star recruits. Stephens didn't waste his time chasing 5 star guys being recruited by the top 10 destinations schools in college basketball. Even when he went to a Final Four, was thought of as one of the best coaches in college basketball and got a pre-season top 5 ranking across the board he didn't waste his time doing that.

It's hard for me to imagine a better recruiter for Wake than Skip, and he got Paul because he was committed at age 10. But we're going to find a better recruiter than Skip to finally start landing top 30 guys? And until we do that it's hopeless to compete? Not buying it.

Nobody's saying we should avoid NBA talent. Darius was NBA talent. Josh Howard was NBA talent. Ish was NBA Talent. Those are the kind of glue guys that lead to long-term program success at a place like Wake along with that next tier of borderline guys like Eric Williams, Taron, Codi, etc. Build that first, and if a Chris Paul falls in your lap take advantage of it.

Or start dropping names of coaches we can hire that are going to pull three 5-stars in over the next couple years at Wake...
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So we should recruit guys good enough to play in the NBA after 3 years of college but not so good that they could go to the NBA after 1-2 years. Got it.

Also, if guys leave early for the NBA, it is better that we didn't know they were going to be that good when we recruited them. Got it.

And we should hire Brad Stevens to be our coach. Got it.

I forgot, now comes the part where you twist my argument into something I'm not arguing and hurl insults to feel superior.
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Why do you keep whining about this name-calling shit with me? I have done nothing of the sort replying to your posts. I did basically call BKF dumb, but he is some superhero of pardody trolls and can take that up with me on his own.
 
bobknightfan said:
That was a ridiculous statement, not a fact. Which Bob Knight player other than Isiah Thomas left IU early to go to the NBA? Are you telling me that only 10 players in all of college basketball left early to go to the NBA during the 29 years that Bob Knight was the coach at Indiana?
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The statement I made (and you conveniently chose not to respond to) was that from 1976 (year of the ABA/NBA merger) until 1989 Bob Knight coached 10% of all the NCAA players who entered the draft after 1-2 years. The percentage actually goes up if you consider 1-2 year players who actually got drafted. Here's the list (I've included their draft spot in parentheses and bolded IU players):

Jacky Dorsey (26)
Edward Douglous
Warnell Lamb
James Holley
Garcia Hopkins (128)
Magic Johnson (1)
Cliff Robinson (11)
Randy Owens (124)
Isiah Thomas (2)
Ennis Whatley (13)
Manute Bol (31)
Chris Washburn (3)
John Williams (12)
Norris Coleman (38)
Rex Chapman (8)
Sylvester Gray (35)
Tito Horford (39)
Jay Edwards (33)
Shawn Kemp (17)
Maurice Selvin
Alex Soyebo
Johnny Steptoe

That's 22 players who entered the draft immediately after finishing their freshman or sophomore year. Bob Knight recruited and coached 2 of them. 16 of them were drafted. So for the first 13 years after the merger Bob Knight recruited 1 out of every 8 1-2 year players drafted into the NBA.

Edit: to add link http://www.nba.com/news/lottery02_earlyentry_history.html
 
bobknightfan said:
I don't mind the insults....I'm quite used to them. However, I don't think you even understand what DCDeac is trying to say. He is not arguing that you can win without talent...nor is he advocating not trying to get "NBA-level" talent. The way that I understand what he is saying is simply that he feels that trying to compete with schools like Kentucky for obvious 1 or 2-year early outs is not the best way to get that talent and maintain a consistently strong program at Wake Forest. And he has presented credible historical WF data to support that position.

Trying to discredit that position by turning it into some kind of pissing contest about me contributes nothing to the discussion...and does a great disservice to DCDeac.
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Nobody is advocating that we should spend all of our time waging recruiting wars against Kentucky, Duke, and UNC. However, given the amount of talent in NC and our national brand (much weaker since [Redacted] but still kept afloat by Chris and to a lesser extent Duncan) it would be foolish to not target a couple of 5 star guys each year to make a push for. We have shown that if we get on those guys early we have the ability to beat out better programs.

To not heavily recruit Harry Giles, for instance, would be criminal.


Also that's not even what you or DC are really arguing. You're not saying "we shouldn't go after 1-2 year guys (a.k.a 5 stars) because we won't get them so its a waste of resources."

You are saying that "we shouldn't go after 1-2 year guys because they won't help the program. We'd rather have a top 60 4 star here for 3-4 years than a top 25 player for 1-2 years." Given that players rated 25-60 are far less likely to be successful than top 25 players this is not an effective strategy.
 
The funny part is that Buzz offered Joel Embiid and has been heavily recruiting Harry Giles. Funny, too, is the fact that he's recruiting highly ranked prospects in the class of 2015.

Again - Skip, Dino and GDO never recruited a one-and-done and, with the exception of CP3 and Rouq, none of our early entrants have been one-and-done caliber prospects.

But it's not really about one-and-dones, is it.
 
Turd Ferguson said:
Dave Odom post-Duncan in the ACC: 7-9, 7-9, 7-9, 8-8, fired.

What's your point?
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I still think that if they had admitted that xfr from UNC (Parker) that Odom would have turned him into a decent center for us. (I think he ended up as a PF low double double guy at KY). He was a 5 star that wanted to come to Wake after being booted from UNC. Seemed only fair to complete the Marktar trade.
 
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