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Bobknightfan's Take on GT Game

QCdeac
Dave Odom was on Rodney while an assistant at UVA, that relationship helped us get Rodney when he came on down to WFU

My question was a bit of a rhetorical one, as tons of coaches were recruiting CP3 hard for years.

Credit to Odom for that get though. No one gives him credit for Duncan, but Rodney was the blue chip player that really lifted Wake's stature in college basketball.
 
I wonder where Rodney ranks in terms of dominant Wake bball players- has to be top three?
 
Being in the postseason every year since he was 5 years old probably "helped" Chris be a Wake fan.

How did we get Rodney Rogers from Durham? Sure he grew up a Carolina, Duke or State fan.

Chris Paul grew up as a UNc fan. Saying he was a Wake fan that fell into our laps simply is not true at all. Shelton Mitchell on the other hand....
 
Obviously, getting more of those 5-star classes like AT&T is the way to go. It worked out so well for us.............

I would rather have a class of Aminu, Walker, and Woods every year than a class of Chase Fischer, Daniel Green, and Anthony Fields. How about you?
 
Obviously, getting more of those 5-star classes like AT&T is the way to go. It worked out so well for us.............

How about a team of solid 4-year players surrounding a few 5-star talents that might choose to leave early? I dunno, say like maybe Isaiah Thomas and the '81 Hoosiers?
 
Obviously, getting more of those 5-star classes like AT&T is the way to go. It worked out so well for us.............

It did work out pretty well. We made it to number one in the country and won an NCAA game. What are we doing with Jeff [Redacted]'s players?
 
bkf, what's the deal with Larry Bird and Coach Knight? Is it true Bird hated him?
 
How about a team of solid 4-year players surrounding a few 5-star talents that might choose to leave early? I dunno, say like maybe Isaiah Thomas and the '81 Hoosiers?

Didn't someone post a stat earlier that showed Knight to have been the coach to something like 10% of all of the early entry players during the years he coached at Indiana? Hypocrite: BKF is one.
 
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-power-of-negative-thinking-bob.html
"There is an inescapable irony surrounding Knight's career. He achieved great success both on the court and off the court while emphasizing the importance of discipline, which he defines as "recognizing what has to be done, doing it as well as you can do it, and doing it that way all the time"--yet Knight often displayed horrific lack of personal discipline/self control in many infamous incidents; Indiana University fired Knight in 2000 after he repeatedly violated a code of conduct put in place to curb his verbal abusiveness and physical violence. Knight never directly addresses his temper in the book and his only reference to the end of his career at Indiana University is the suggestion that he should have left years earlier when it became apparent (in his opinion) that the school's administration no longer supported him. Knight would never accept that kind of lack of personal accountability from one of his players on the court, in the classroom or anywhere else, so even though Knight is indisputably a great coaching strategist and even though his book contains much wisdom it is undeniably hypocritical for Knight to ask other people to be disciplined, to think negatively (in terms of assessing the possible consequences of a course of action) and to uphold a high moral standard."
 
That was a ridiculous statement, not a fact. Which Bob Knight player other than Isiah Thomas left IU early to go to the NBA? Are you telling me that only 10 players in all of college basketball left early to go to the NBA during the 29 years that Bob Knight was the coach at Indiana?

Yeah I'm not sure what the statistic is. Indiana doesn't have anywhere close to 10% of the guys to go early:

http://www.nba.com/news/lottery02_earlyentry_history.html
 
I can't follow you. You admit that we don't have enough talent. You don't want to recruit guys talented enough to leave after a year or two. We can not tell our student-athletes when the can leave. The only way we can make sure a player stays four years is to recruit guys that are heading to Europe or the D-league. That isn't going to get it done. Also, we can not build a program of Tim Duncans who we didn't mean to be a lottery pick but was but decided to stay four years when he could've left after 2. Seriously, exactly how would you build a winning program? Or are you like BKF and don't care about winning?

This is just a patently false argument.

I'm not arguing some hypothetical here. I'm arguing that Wake Forest's history as a program is a good indicator of how to succeed in the future. This idea that you can't figure out who's a one-and-done and who isn't is very inaccurate from a recruiting standpoint. I'm not talking about guys who develop beyond their expectations or guys who could leave after the junior year. I'm talking about chasing consensus Oden/Conley/Cook types. Giles is another example - it'd be great to add him to a solid team of players. But over-recruiting him and picking up a bunch of Rountree's in the meantime isn't going to build a program that goes to 16 straight postseasons.

This is also in no way a defense of the [Redacted] debacle. I don't think Wake can win chasing Wiggins and Parker recruits - but we also can't win with classes of Chase Fischers and Daniel Greens. When Odom and Skip were really building long-term winning programs, guys like Codi were the norm in every class.

I'm not going to argue the point anymore because there are always those who simply believe you can't win without Jabari Parkers. But in our history we've lost too many of those battles that hurt our recruiting, and we've won too many games with strong, older teams. And when we have bagged a 2 year kid, the year after they left we've been bad.

ACC tourney, NCAA tourney, NIT, CBI - we have ONE postseason win in the 6 years since Skip died. Arguing for a return to what carried us to a 16 year postseason run is not some ridiculous idea.
 
This is just a patently false argument.

I'm not arguing some hypothetical here. I'm arguing that Wake Forest's history as a program is a good indicator of how to succeed in the future. This idea that you can't figure out who's a one-and-done and who isn't is very inaccurate from a recruiting standpoint. I'm not talking about guys who develop beyond their expectations or guys who could leave after the junior year. I'm talking about chasing consensus Oden/Conley/Cook types. Giles is another example - it'd be great to add him to a solid team of players. But over-recruiting him and picking up a bunch of Rountree's in the meantime isn't going to build a program that goes to 16 straight postseasons.

This is also in no way a defense of the [Redacted] debacle. I don't think Wake can win chasing Wiggins and Parker recruits - but we also can't win with classes of Chase Fischers and Daniel Greens. When Odom and Skip were really building long-term winning programs, guys like Codi were the norm in every class.

I'm not going to argue the point anymore because there are always those who simply believe you can't win without Jabari Parkers. But in our history we've lost too many of those battles that hurt our recruiting, and we've won too many games with strong, older teams. And when we have bagged a 2 year kid, the year after they left we've been bad.

ACC tourney, NCAA tourney, NIT, CBI - we have ONE postseason win in the 6 years since Skip died. Arguing for a return to what carried us to a 16 year postseason run is not some ridiculous idea.

No it's not ridiculous. I'm not the one complaining about the Odom/Skip/Dino years. I'd be happy to go back in that direction. Including mixing in some 1/2 and dunners with solid 4 year players. Basically what we had going back to Odom.

ETA: Duncan doesn't fit into this argument one way or the other. No he wasn't predicted to be as good as he was, but it's clear that diamond in the rough hunting will not build a program. Also, we are nowhere near as successful in the nineties without Duncan being good enough to leave as a lottery pick after 2 years. I'm glad he stayed, but that was up to him and not us. If you aren't willing to try and get a few players every couple of years with that kind of talent then you will basically be stuck with what we have now--a bunch of role players and a mediocre team.
 
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How many 5 star recruits did Odom pursue after the Duncan run?

Or let's look at the coaches we demanded after Dino. How many 5 star recruits has Shaka or Stephens signed in the past decade? UVA has just made the jump we wanted to make - how many 5 stars did they sign to do it?

Answer is zero across the board...
 
How many 5 star recruits did Odom pursue after the Duncan run?

Or let's look at the coaches we demanded after Dino. How many 5 star recruits has Shaka or Stephens signed in the past decade? UVA has just made the jump we wanted to make - how many 5 stars did they sign to do it?

Answer is zero across the board...

Dave Odom post-Duncan in the ACC: 7-9, 7-9, 7-9, 8-8, fired.

What's your point?
 
Hang on a sec. First, Tim Duncan was absolutely not recruited as a one-and-done. Yeah, he turned out to be awesome, but you can't compare him to Jabari Parker or something. It's true that he could have gone pro after his Sophomore year, although with Stackhouse, Wallace, Joe Smiht, KG - he was far from a consensus #1. Coming back for his senior year was really the extra beneficial year, but he still doesn't fit the one or two-and-done mold we're discussing here.

After that we had ONE other Sweet 16 appearance. Get out of here with the "on track for a sweet 16" stuff. We didn't win the games, nut punch or not. 2006 team was "built to be an NCAA team?" WTF does that mean? They finished 10th in the ACC and had no point guard.

The 2006 team was talented enough to play the national champs to a close game. They were talented enough to make the semis of the ACC tournament. They started losing and things snowballed, but they were much closer to being relevant nationally than the current Wake team. I see no reason why we should drop a strategy that has led to our only real national success to go down some quixotic quest to be "like Butler".
 
How many 5 star recruits did Odom pursue after the Duncan run?

Or let's look at the coaches we demanded after Dino. How many 5 star recruits has Shaka or Stephens signed in the past decade? UVA has just made the jump we wanted to make - how many 5 stars did they sign to do it?

Answer is zero across the board...

YEAH!

How many 5 star recruits did Smart and Stephens sign at mid-major schools that are clearly known as signing 5 star recruits?!?!?


WHAT A GREAT POINT. NOT A STRAWMAN AT ALL.


Idiot.
 
I don't understand this whole discussion.

You try to get the best players you can to come as possible with a small qualifier that they fit the system.

You start with the 5 star one or two year players.
If they show no interest, you go after the high 4 star guys who are in that 20-60 category.
You get as many of those as you can then move on to the lower tier 4 star guys then whatever 3 stars you think are underrated/moving up.
Then you go [Redacted] level if you need bodies, but only if you need bodies, otherwise you save it for the next year.

Recruiting is not rocket science. You get the best players you can, period. The idea of intentionally only getting one 5 star guy and the rest 4 stars is stupid if there are multiple 5 stars that want to come. There is no magic formula. Acquire as much talent as you can and see what happens.
 
YEAH!

How many 5 star recruits did Smart and Stephens sign at mid-major schools that are clearly known as signing 5 star recruits?!?!?


WHAT A GREAT POINT. NOT A STRAWMAN AT ALL.


Idiot.

Ugh. More garbage from you and pathetic personal shots.

1) If you didn't notice Stephens and Shaka built programs capable of recruiting 5 star talent, you're an idiot who apparently hasn't paid any attention to the last decade of college basketball. Plus UVA is not a mid-major.
2) If you'd read anything about those coaches, you'd know they both specifically target particular types of players and avoid one-and-dones.

I mean, talking up the 2006 team as a defense of this plan is about as laughable as it gets. I love that you guys mock "moral victories" now but throw them out as "playing the champs close" or some ranking we achieved for one whole week in the middle of a zero postseason win campaign as excellent measures of our past "success."

Moral victories are for losers. 16 straight postseason appearances is a basketball program. You see "no need" to return to that strategy? Fine. I disagree. Go back to name calling like usual, done with this nonsense.
 
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