Bobknightfan's Take on GT Game

[RacerDeac]

Damn BKF note you only have 718 posts and most everyone is taking shots at you! I just passed 900 and not getting that kind of attention. But I try to refrain from getting in the midst of controversy. But anyway "you da' man" with that much attention...

So, Bob Knight is BKF's God and BKF is yours?

BKF's posts number in the thousands. He had a habit of deleting all of his posts 20 minutes after he made them for a while to prevent his absurdities from being searched and brought back up whenever he said something else ridiculous.

 

[DeaconSig]

Wake's best basketball has been played getting really good, but not quite NBA-elite players that stay in the program. With that as a base, hopefully you grab a hometown Chris Paul or another perfect fit rockstar recruit. I've always thought that was the general idea behind the anti one-and-done argument - although it's obviously been bastardized in the spin machine surrounding the current state of Wake basketball.

Wake basketball in the past 20+ years has been built around guys who were early entry guys. Rodney Rogers, Randolph Childress, Tim Duncan, Josh Howard, Chris Paul, James Johnson, Jeff Teague, and Al-Farouq Aminu. Of that group, 5 left early, two would have left early but for injuries, and one was Tim Duncan.

In a perfect world, you get more than 1 of those guys on the team at the same time, surround them with solid 4-year guys, and win a bunch of games. In a really perfect world, you do that, get 1 or 2 to stay an extra year, and then win a national title.

Wake has never been a team that could build a contender based on "4-year guys." At least not since early entry became ubiquitous. Wake has always been at its best when it had a foundational class with stars added in- that part of DC's post is correct.

Of course, the stupid part of all of this theorizing is expecting that you can recruit "4-year guys." Can you recruit guys who will go to class? Sure. But if Aaron Rountree explodes and averages 25 and 9 over the rest of the season while shooting 45% from 3, do you think he is staying at Wake? Hell no. The only guys who stay four years are guys who are not good enough to turn pro.

 

[SkinsNDeacs]

Damn BKF note you only have 718 posts and most everyone is taking shots at you! I just passed 900 and not getting that kind of attention. But I try to refrain from getting in the midst of controversy. But anyway "you da' man" with that much attention...

lol...obviously does not understand the oddities of bkf.

 

[bigdoublezero]

Wait, what?

I think far more Wake fans don't like the idea of 1 and dones because of the history of our program. How many 2 years or less guys have won postseason games for us? CP3, one of our best ever, would be the poster child with 3 NCAA wins in 2 years - then he left and we had no point guard and spent 2 years being bad. Teague and Johnson gave us 2 years and no NCAA tourney wins. Farouq gave us one then when he left we were a complete disaster again.

Skip may have gotten us into the mix with big names, but spending so much time chasing the Oden, Conley and Cook package for example was pretty detrimental to our program. Consider our 4 year guys - Duncan, Justin Gray, Eric Williams, Taron Downey, Levy, Dawson, Hicks, Songaila, etc... Those were the type of guys we had at the core of our 16 straight post-season appearances. Suddenly we've only been to the post-season twice in 7 years despite numerous 2-and-dones.

I think fans remember Wake as always in the hunt and always dangerous, and that was built on not relying on a Kentucky/UNC formula of getting 1 and dones routinely. It's like we've gone to two extremes though - Dino couldn't coach NBA talent to a postseason win over Cleveland State, and [Redacted] can't recruit guys who would sniff the league after 3 years. Neither have led to much of anything in the postseason.

Wake's best basketball has been played getting really good, but not quite NBA-elite players that stay in the program. With that as a base, hopefully you grab a hometown Chris Paul or another perfect fit rockstar recruit. I've always thought that was the general idea behind the anti one-and-done argument - although it's obviously been bastardized in the spin machine surrounding the current state of Wake basketball.

This is more an argument for "really good, but not quite NBA-elite players that stay in the program," not against one and dones.

Why take guys who are really good and will leave in one or two years (have we ever had someone jump straight to the NBA after one year? no.), when you can take really good guys who will stay for four years and bring stability and graduate and make all the bluehairs proud? It's a fake proposition.

Fact is very few of our players have ever come in as locks to leave after one or two years. You recruit the best players and let the chips fall where they may.

The culture stuff is definitely a thing with older Wake fans. Much more than the fact that Farouq only brought us one tourney win. We don't win tourney games for tons of other reasons than having fricking NBA-level talent. So backward.

 

[Say Hey Deac]

Everyone has to believe in something or someone. I believe in Bob Knight. Period. No qualifiers. That was a decision that I made many, many years ago.

I can kind of relate, because this is how I felt about Dale Murphy. He was my absolute idol. Of course, I was 8 years old.

 

[DCDeac]

Wake's best basketball was played with Tim Duncan who would have been the #1 player taken after his sophomore year whenever he left.

Since 1990, every Wake Sweet 16 team either had an early entrant, or Duncan, who was an anomaly.

The CP3 era was on track for at least two Sweet 16's before he punched Hodge in the nads and then the 2006 team was built to at least be an NCAA team.

I like that planning alot better than the "hope we get enough talent to get into the NIT" plan.

Hang on a sec. First, Tim Duncan was absolutely not recruited as a one-and-done. Yeah, he turned out to be awesome, but you can't compare him to Jabari Parker or something. It's true that he could have gone pro after his Sophomore year, although with Stackhouse, Wallace, Joe Smiht, KG - he was far from a consensus #1. Coming back for his senior year was really the extra beneficial year, but he still doesn't fit the one or two-and-done mold we're discussing here.

After that we had ONE other Sweet 16 appearance. Get out of here with the "on track for a sweet 16" stuff. We didn't win the games, nut punch or not. 2006 team was "built to be an NCAA team?" WTF does that mean? They finished 10th in the ACC and had no point guard.

 

[SkinsNDeacs]

I can kind of relate, because this is how I felt about Dale Murphy. He was my absolute idol. Of course, I was 8 years old.

Yeah...it was Muggsy for me.

 

[LilburnDeac]

Does bkf realize the irony of chastising others for pulling against their alma mater when he freely admits that he would pull against his own flesh and blood?

Irony and hypocrisy do not exist for followers of the Way of Bob (Never BOBBY) Knight.

 

[LilburnDeac]

Hang on a sec. First, Tim Duncan was absolutely not recruited as a one-and-done. Yeah, he turned out to be awesome, but you can't compare him to Jabari Parker or something. It's true that he could have gone pro after his Sophomore year, although with Stackhouse, Wallace, Joe Smiht, KG - he was far from a consensus #1. Coming back for his senior year was really the extra beneficial year, but he still doesn't fit the one or two-and-done mold we're discussing here.

After that we had ONE other Sweet 16 appearance. Get out of here with the "on track for a sweet 16" stuff. We didn't win the games, nut punch or not. 2006 team was "built to be an NCAA team?" WTF does that mean? They finished 10th in the ACC and had no point guard.

Prior to the ACC Tourney an NBA GM (Kupchak?) said if Duncan were to go pro that year, that he would see him as the #1 draft pick. That's where the whole idea of TD being the top prospect for 3 years came from.

When Duncan came to Wake, he was 3rd in a 3 man class.

 

[ibleedgoldandblack]

Hang on a sec. First, Tim Duncan was absolutely not recruited as a one-and-done. Yeah, he turned out to be awesome, but you can't compare him to Jabari Parker or something. It's true that he could have gone pro after his Sophomore year, although with Stackhouse, Wallace, Joe Smiht, KG - he was far from a consensus #1. Coming back for his senior year was really the extra beneficial year, but he still doesn't fit the one or two-and-done mold we're discussing here.

After that we had ONE other Sweet 16 appearance. Get out of here with the "on track for a sweet 16" stuff. We didn't win the games, nut punch or not. 2006 team was "built to be an NCAA team?" WTF does that mean? They finished 10th in the ACC and had no point guard.

That's true, but you can't ignore the fact that our success those years was with a player that would have been a lottery pick after his soph season and the number 1 pick after his Jr. season.

You can't say, we had our most success by developing a 4 year player. We had success with a player that was a lottery pick as a soph. and a #1 pick as a junior, but elected to stay at WF. If Duncan would have just been an ordinary run of the mill 4 year player (a la Devin Thomas or Andre Washington) we wouldn't have had the success that we had.

 

[DCDeac]

Prior to the ACC Tourney an NBA GM (Kupchak?) said if Duncan were to go pro that year, that he would see him as the #1 draft pick. That's where the whole idea of TD being the top prospect for 3 years came from.

When Duncan came to Wake, he was 3rd in a 3 man class.

Jerry West said he might be a #1 pick as well, but he wasn't a consensus #1 pick and if you look at the actual '95 projections he wasn't actually a #1 pick at that time. Plus he had publicly denied he'd be leaving early regardless, so it wasn't much of an issue until after his junior year when he actually was a #1 pick.

I'm not diminishing how great Tim was. I'm just saying that chasing 1 or 2 year guys has not worked out for us from a recruiting standpoint - and that Tim is not an example of that working out. Heck, we didn't even have to chase CP3 since he was already a Wake fan growing up - he pretty much fell in our lap.

 

[deacvision7]

And now we are "famining" with no hope of a feast on the horizon. Yeah, this is much better.


You guys are just so freaking small time. I don't understand that way of thinking. "It will be hard, so we better not even try." Pathetic.

 

[qcdeac]

Heck, we didn't even have to chase CP3 since he was already a Wake fan growing up - he pretty much fell in our lap.

Being in the postseason every year since he was 5 years old probably "helped" Chris be a Wake fan.

How did we get Rodney Rogers from Durham? Sure he grew up a Carolina, Duke or State fan.

 

[DeaconSig]

This is the definitive statement on the subject.

It's a pipedream to think that Wake Forest is going to develop a top national program by trying to go after these top guys. We can never compete with the Kentucky's, et al, for these guys to get them in enough quantity to maintain a top program....unless we are willing to completely drop any pretext of maintaining academic integrity....and almost certainly couldn't get enough of them no matter how far we dropped our pants to do so. It would be a constant lurch between occasional feast and longer periods of famine.....just like we went thru in the past 10 years or so. And as DC correctly out, there were precious few NCAA wins even during the periods where we were supposedly "feasting".

BKF, you don't like college basketball these days, which is certainly your prerogative. And I understand your angst regarding the subject- I don't enjoy watching it as much now as I did in the 80's and 90s either. But given your position, forgive me if your input is not exactly something I would consider useful. You would rather rail at the reality of the situation and pine for a simpler time than try and focus on what Wake can do to win games now.

With that being said, Wake doesn't have to compete with Kentucky, Duke, or UNC for players. Nobody on this board expects Wake to be a perennial top-10 team. What we want to happen istwo-fold: (1) obtain the best basketball coach Wake can get, and then keep them here unless Kentucky/UNC/Dook/Kansas comes calling; and (2) put together consistently good teams that have a chance to win in the post-season.

In this day and age, the way to do that is to get 4-5 guys like Taron Downey, Scooter Banks, and LD Williams, and use them to surround 1-2 (or more) early-entry candidates. It takes both. And frankly, there is no reason for Wake not to be able to do that.

 

[TheReff]

I wouldn't have cheered against my grandson...just as I would never have cheered against my son...on a personal basis...but I would have cheered for Coach Knight's team to win. There are no circumstances where I would ever cheer against a Bob Knight-coached team....no matter who it was playing. Everyone has to believe in something or someone. I believe in Bob Knight. Period. No qualifiers. That was a decision that I made many, many years ago.

There was the one time I rooted for the chair............

 

[bcobbdeacs]

QCdeac
Dave Odom was on Rodney while an assistant at UVA, that relationship helped us get Rodney when he came on down to WFU

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Jerry West said he might be a #1 pick as well, but he wasn't a consensus #1 pick and if you look at the actual '95 projections he wasn't actually a #1 pick at that time. Plus he had publicly denied he'd be leaving early regardless, so it wasn't much of an issue until after his junior year when he actually was a #1 pick.

I'm not diminishing how great Tim was. I'm just saying that chasing 1 or 2 year guys has not worked out for us from a recruiting standpoint - and that Tim is not an example of that working out. Heck, we didn't even have to chase CP3 since he was already a Wake fan growing up - he pretty much fell in our lap.

I can't follow you. You admit that we don't have enough talent. You don't want to recruit guys talented enough to leave after a year or two. We can not tell our student-athletes when the can leave. The only way we can make sure a player stays four years is to recruit guys that are heading to Europe or the D-league. That isn't going to get it done. Also, we can not build a program of Tim Duncans who we didn't mean to be a lottery pick but was but decided to stay four years when he could've left after 2. Seriously, exactly how would you build a winning program? Or are you like BKF and don't care about winning?

 

[qcdeac]

Of course, the stupid part of all of this theorizing is expecting that you can recruit "4-year guys." Can you recruit guys who will go to class? Sure. But if Aaron Rountree explodes and averages 25 and 9 over the rest of the season while shooting 45% from 3, do you think he is staying at Wake? Hell no. The only guys who stay four years are guys who are not good enough to turn pro.

So much this.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

BKF, you don't like college basketball these days, which is certainly your prerogative. And I understand your angst regarding the subject- I don't enjoy watching it as much now as I did in the 80's and 90s either. But given your position, forgive me if your input is not exactly something I would consider useful. You would rather rail at the reality of the situation and pine for a simpler time than try and focus on what Wake can do to win games now.

With that being said, Wake doesn't have to compete with Kentucky, Duke, or UNC for players. Nobody on this board expects Wake to be a perennial top-10 team. What we want to happen istwo-fold: (1) obtain the best basketball coach Wake can get, and then keep them here unless Kentucky/UNC/Dook/Kansas comes calling; and (2) put together consistently good teams that have a chance to win in the post-season.

In this day and age, the way to do that is to get 4-5 guys like Taron Downey, Scooter Banks, and LD Williams, and use them to surround 1-2 (or more) early-entry candidates. It takes both. And frankly, there is no reason for Wake not to be able to do that.

Exactly. And definitely not unreasonable.

 

[bigdoublezero]

Obviously, getting more of those 5-star classes like AT&T is the way to go. It worked out so well for us.............

This is actually kind of how I feel every time I read an inane BKF post.