Bobknightfan's Take on GT Game

[Strickland33]

Strickland, I didn't say that they left because of Dino's deficiencies as a coach but that may have been part of why they left. I don't recall that I have ever speculated to make Dino look worse. In fact, I have never been particularly critical of Dino. The whole focus of my posts was to try to put the early departure of Wake players in a somewhat different light than we usually do around here. I do think that the major reason they left was their relatively high draft status but that does not mean that there could not have been other factors. Most important is the notion that Wellman in firing Dino and hiring Buzz was perhaps overreacting to a temporary, passing issue and partly due to his misjudgments of the early departure phenomena, he made huge mistakes.

Also, just to clarify the record, IIRC Dino went to Indianapolis to try to dissuade Teague from going pro after his second year. But he was not able to persuade Teague to stay. And it was pretty much common knowledge that AFA's parents valued education and so that had a role, perhaps the major role, in his staying for a second year.

The bold is just not true, which makes the sentence after it particularly humorous. If you are not sure that this is the case, when why continue to speculate?

The primary reason that JJ, Jeff, and Rouq left is that they were guaranteed first round selections, and lottery picks in Rouq's case. End of story.

 

[Dino Gaudino]

I went to Johnson and Teague's first game as freshmen against Fairfield. Those guys were NBA caliber players at that point, imo. I don't think Dino deserves much if any credit for coaching them up as you said, Strickland. Teague came on strong during the second half of that season because he started playing with more aggressiveness and both made the typical sophomore leap. I know "speculation" is one of your pet peeves, but I agree with sailor that Teague and possibly Aminu could've been convinced to stay for their junior seasons if they were getting better coaching (Johnson was gone no matter what). I think the lack of coaching is evident in that the 2009 team didn't improve or become more cohesive after January.

 

[LilburnDeac]

I wouldn't have cheered against my grandson...just as I would never have cheered against my son...on a personal basis...but I would have cheered for Coach Knight's team to win. There are no circumstances where I would ever cheer against a Bob Knight-coached team....no matter who it was playing. Everyone has to believe in something or someone. I believe in Bob Knight. Period. No qualifiers. That was a decision that I made many, many years ago.

This is one of the saddest things I have ever seen.

 

[IAppreciateIt]

Dino emailed draftexpress and told them to stop ranking our guys so highly.

 

[DirkTheDeac]

I went to Johnson and Teague's first game as freshmen against Fairfield. Those guys were NBA caliber players at that point, imo.

I was at that game too and they would have been eaten alive in the NBA. Dino made them much better on the defensive end. To suggest they left because of a lack of coaching is laughable. They left because they were ready. A coach tries to hold a program together for three years and this is the shit that is dumped on him?

 

[Dino Gaudino]

I was at that game too and they would have been eaten alive in the NBA. Dino made them much better on the defensive end. To suggest they left because of a lack of coaching is laughable. They left because they were ready. A coach tries to hold a program together for three years and this is the shit that is dumped on him?

I didn't say they left because of a lack of coaching, I said they probably could've been persuaded to stay if they were getting better coaching.

 

[sailordeac]

Just curious Strickland, do you not think that Dino had deficiencies as a coach?

And if he did, then why couldn't those deficiencies have some role in players recruited by his predecessor wanting to leave early?

Some of y'all seem just to want to view everything in the same old categories. I guess I was asking people to try to think outside of the box, so that we could get a different perspective on players leaving Wake early and perhaps try to understand our basketball program as a whole in a slightly different way. Namely, that early departures have never been particularly common at Wake, and maybe shouldn't have been seen, or be seen, as a major issue by the powers that be. Instead, I get unnecessary defenses of Dino, and condemnations of Buzz.

 

[Strickland33]

I went to Johnson and Teague's first game as freshmen against Fairfield. Those guys were NBA caliber players at that point, imo. I don't think Dino deserves much if any credit for coaching them up as you said, Strickland. Teague came on strong during the second half of that season because he started playing with more aggressiveness and both made the typical sophomore leap. I know "speculation" is one of your pet peeves, but I agree with sailor that Teague and possibly Aminu could've been convinced to stay for their junior seasons if they were getting better coaching (Johnson was gone no matter what). I think the lack of coaching is evident in that the 2009 team didn't improve or become more cohesive after January.

So, two things.

1) They could have been convinced to stay, but why would they stay? Teague and Johnson were guaranteed first round picks and both were selected in the top-20 by playoff teams. Aminu as guaranteed to get drafted in the lottery. What would any of these guys gain from coming back to school? What does this have to do with Dino? Where is the evidence that suggests a causal link between yours and sailor's accusations and those guys leaving? Those are honest questions and if they can't be answered, then I don't think speculation is appropriate.

2) Also - if you check the 2007 RSCI, then you'll understand why it's kind of impressive that Teague and Johnson were as good as they were as early as they were. Both of those guys really exceeded expectations, both in terms of what they did as freshmen and their improvement as sophomores. They may have been NBA caliber players in your mind (or in our minds as fans), but recruiting analysts did not think so. Neither did scouts.

 

[Dino Gaudino]

So, two things.

1) They could have been convinced to stay, but why would they stay? Teague and Johnson were guaranteed first round picks and both were selected in the top-20 by playoff teams. Aminu as guaranteed to get drafted in the lottery. What would any of these guys gain from coming back to school? What does this have to do with Dino? Where is the evidence that suggests a causal link between yours and sailor's accusations and those guys leaving? Those are honest questions and if they can't be answered, then I don't think speculation is appropriate.

2) Also - if you check the 2007 RSCI, then you'll understand why it's kind of impressive that Teague and Johnson were as good as they were as early as they were. Both of those guys really exceeded expectations, both in terms of what they did as freshmen and their improvement as sophomores. They may have been NBA caliber players in your mind (or in our minds as fans), but recruiting analysts did not think so. Neither did scouts.

I would refer to them as observations rather than accusations based on watching a significant amount of college basketball during my life. Also, scouts and recruiting analysts misevaluate players fairly often. The difference between a 5-star player and a top-60 4-star player is marginal quite frequently.

 

[Strickland33]

Just curious Strickland, do you not think that Dino had deficiencies as a coach?

And if he did, then why couldn't those deficiencies have some role in players recruited by his predecessor wanting to leave early?

Some of y'all seem just to want to view everything in the same old categories. I guess I was asking people to try to think outside of the box, so that we could get a different perspective on players leaving Wake early and perhaps try to understand our basketball program as a whole in a slightly different way. Namely, that early departures have never been particularly common at Wake, and maybe shouldn't have been seen, or be seen, as a major issue by the powers that be. Instead, I get unnecessary defenses of Dino, and condemnations of Buzz.

What I think of Dino's coaching is besides the point, though Dirk's post just about sums it up. (This was pre-boards, but I was also pretty upset when Dino was fired because, misguided as it may have been, I thought that he deserved another season, at the very least. I also wasn't virulently against the Buzz hire and wasn't BuzzOut until midway through year two.)

What I'm wondering (still) is how you are making that point. What evidence do you have? Dino put four guys into the NBA and each of those guys got better during their time here. Maybe not significantly better, but we are comparing him with the oft-vaunted player development of the [Redacted]-staff. If Devin and Codi (and Cav and Moto) have improved because of Buzz, then JT, Rouq, and JJ improved because of Dino. It's that simple.

If there's no evidence, then why speculate? In your effort to understand the program in a different way, I think you're misunderstanding some very fundamental aspects of that program and Dino's efforts.

 

[Strickland33]

I would refer to them as observations rather than accusations based on watching a significant amount of college basketball during my life. Also, scouts and recruiting analysts misevaluate players fairly often. The difference between a 5-star player and a top-60 4-star player is marginal quite frequently.

I don't want to engage with this argument again because misevaluation is neither as common nor as stark as you make it out to be and there's a ton of data to prove that.

Look at the RSCI for that year, though. The difference is pretty stark between the ranges you're suggesting and, though scouts misevaluate players, it is not wrong to suggest that these guys were not thought of as NBA players by either analysts or scouts (and I can personally attest to the latter).

 

[Dino Gaudino]

I don't want to engage with this argument again because misevaluation is neither as common nor as stark as you make it out to be and there's a ton of data to prove that.

Look at the RSCI for that year, though. The difference is pretty stark between the ranges you're suggesting and, though scouts misevaluate players, it is not wrong to suggest that these guys were not thought of as NBA players by either analysts or scouts (and I can personally attest to the latter).

The 2007 class is a bit of an aberration talent wise, right? How many other classes have four of the top 15 players in the NBA right now plus a bunch of other players ranging from role players to fringe all-stars?

 

[deacvision7]

This thread has derailed.

 

[DirkTheDeac]

This thread has derailed.

Only in that a discussion about Bz's worst loss of the season, and one some might have seen coming, veered off into blaming the loss on Dino. Yes, I know that isn't what was tossed out there but the insinuation is there none the less. Without Dino, Bz wouldn't be facing the insurmountable challenge of rebuilding a once proud program. I think I have accurately laid out the case why this isn't true and that the real blame lies at the feet of Ron Wellman. Not that complicated really.

 

[bigdoublezero]

I wouldn't have cheered against my grandson...just as I would never have cheered against my son...on a personal basis...but I would have cheered for Coach Knight's team to win. There are no circumstances where I would ever cheer against a Bob Knight-coached team....no matter who it was playing. Everyone has to believe in something or someone. I believe in Bob Knight. Period. No qualifiers. That was a decision that I made many, many years ago.

This is a HOF post. Assuming OGB has added it to his archives already, but if not, goddamn.

 

[sailordeac]

Only in that a discussion about Bz's worst loss of the season, and one some might have seen coming, veered off into blaming the loss on Dino. Yes, I know that isn't what was tossed out there but the insinuation is there none the less. Without Dino, Bz wouldn't be facing the insurmountable challenge of rebuilding a once proud program. I think I have accurately laid out the case why this isn't true and that the real blame lies at the feet of Ron Wellman. Not that complicated really.

I have no problem with you Dirk but really this has to be one of your most mistaken posts ever. You are trying to be too clever by a half, looking for insinuations that are just not there. The Buzz business seems to have driven you to obsessions. No one is defending Buzz or Wellman here, directly or indirectly. Quite the contrary. Maybe you should go back and read the posts again.

 

[DeaconBrews]

I wouldn't have cheered against my grandson...just as I would never have cheered against my son...on a personal basis...but I would have cheered for Coach Knight's team to win. There are no circumstances where I would ever cheer against a Bob Knight-coached team....no matter who it was playing. Everyone has to believe in something or someone. I believe in Bob Knight. Period. No qualifiers. That was a decision that I made many, many years ago.

 

[DirkTheDeac]

I have no problem with you Dirk but really this has to be one of your most mistaken posts ever. You are trying to be too clever by a half, looking for insinuations that are just not there. The Buzz business seems to have driven you to obsessions. No one is defending Buzz or Wellman here, directly or indirectly. Quite the contrary. Maybe you should go back and read the posts again.

Perhaps I am mistaken. But the thread did drift toward Dino and his coaching shortcomings. I posted what I think about all that. For what it's worth, I have no problem with you either. Your position on Dino is well understood.

 

[RChildress107]

I went to Johnson and Teague's first game as freshmen against Fairfield. Those guys were NBA caliber players at that point, imo. I don't think Dino deserves much if any credit for coaching them up as you said, Strickland. Teague came on strong during the second half of that season because he started playing with more aggressiveness and both made the typical sophomore leap. I know "speculation" is one of your pet peeves, but I agree with sailor that Teague and possibly Aminu could've been convinced to stay for their junior seasons if they were getting better coaching (Johnson was gone no matter what). I think the lack of coaching is evident in that the 2009 team didn't improve or become more cohesive after January.

And whoever convinced them to stay would have given them horrible advice and essentially burned a couple million dollars. That actually kind of sounds like something our current coach would do.

 

[TUA01576]

Come on people seriously? A guy could be persuaded if he had better coaching? Then how come guys leave early often while playing for Coach K, Calipari, Self, etc.... Most guys will leave when given the advice that they will be 1st round picks. There is nothing more to it.