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Country Dan's Version of the Debacle @ Clemson

w84it said:
Tony would probably be getting rotation minutes, but I don't think he'd be starting.
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yeah. I wish CMM had Chennault's confidence. If CMM would sack up and take it to the basket more he might open it up a little more for the shooters.
 
Heck, Tony as a junior is putting up worse numbers than Madison Jones this year. He hasn't scored in Nova's last 3 games in 40 minutes of PT. He's shooting 33% from the floor versus Madison's 50% and even adjusted for minutes the scoring is equal.

Madison is a much better defender, better size and length, better finisher inside. I'll give Tony the one obvious edge of free throws. Other than that, any coach in the country would look at those 3 kids and have a talk with Tony about coping with 3rd string duties. When a freshman is already arguably better than a junior, it's not a hard choice.
 
DCDeac said:
Lol that Tony would be starting. Strick you are losing it.
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Jeff [Redacted] said that Codi as a freshman would be better than Tony as a junior. I'm just pointing out that sophomore Tony and freshman Codi are posting identical numbers.

Frankly, Codi has been bad at the point this year. Perhaps as bad as Tony's freshman year, but that's not the point of contention here. [Redacted] told Tony that Codi would be starting as a freshman over Tony as a junior. I'm just pointing out that for all of the moaning about how bad Tony was, Codi's freshman year has been almost an exact replica in terms of production, turnovers, and efficiency.
 
DCDeac said:
Heck, Tony as a junior is putting up worse numbers than Madison Jones this year. He hasn't scored in Nova's last 3 games in 40 minutes of PT. He's shooting 33% from the floor versus Madison's 50% and even adjusted for minutes the scoring is equal.

Madison is a much better defender, better size and length, better finisher inside. I'll give Tony the one obvious edge of free throws. Other than that, any coach in the country would look at those 3 kids and have a talk with Tony about coping with 3rd string duties. When a freshman is already arguably better than a junior, it's not a hard choice.
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It's a different situation for a different team, coach, and playing style. Were he still the starter here, Tony would be putting up better stats than CMM or Madison, with the exception of shooting percentage.
 
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DCDeac said:
Heck, Tony as a junior is putting up worse numbers than Madison Jones this year. He hasn't scored in Nova's last 3 games in 40 minutes of PT. He's shooting 33% from the floor versus Madison's 50% and even adjusted for minutes the scoring is equal.

Madison is a much better defender, better size and length, better finisher inside. I'll give Tony the one obvious edge of free throws. Other than that, any coach in the country would look at those 3 kids and have a talk with Tony about coping with 3rd string duties. When a freshman is already arguably better than a junior, it's not a hard choice.
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You're not this dense, are you? Tony's role has completely changed. He's a backup for Villanova and his possessions have been cut in half.

You can't compare junior Tony at Nova to freshman Codi at Wake. You can compare freshman Codi at Wake to sophomore Tony at Wake. Same role. Same complementary players. Same pace.
 
fiestadeac said:
wait so he's supposed to play the 3? I think he needs to work on his handles a lot if thats the case
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Unless I'm missing something, he's mostly playing 5 for us. If you think about how K would use the 4 spot to play inside/outside combo - I think that was the expectation.
 
jaybone said:
I was referencing Vytas because he had a significant drop in production between I guess his soph and junior years despite comparative minutes. I had remembered it as frosh to soph years but I guess it was soph to junior.

Anyway, my point is that yes, you give a sophomore 25 minutes and he is much more likely to show significant statistical improvement from his frosh year even if he played 25 minutes a game his frosh year. Much more likely than from soph to junior year. There are some guys who see their last year coming and do show surprising improvement from junior to senior years. Like Visser and Nikita.

Chase seems to be a disappointing exception this year though he is shooting significantly better from 3 than he did last year.
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Chase is actually par for the course chartered by past three-star prospects outside of the top-100. His production from year one to year two has actually increased, along with his efficiency.

Vytas had a bad injury between his second and third year IIRC, which explains both his decline in production and the reason why he wasn't an All-ACC player for us. His sophomore year looked to be the beginning of an amazing career at Wake for Vytas...

Our freshmen are all averaging under 8 ppg. Somebody has to step up next year, but my point was, as it is now, that anybody going significantly over their per 40 minutes pace adjusted predictions on this team is kind of an unreal expectation. It's really never happened with players of our Class of 2012's caliber in recent history.
 
Strickland33 said:
You're not this dense, are you? Tony's role has completely changed. He's a backup for Villanova and his possessions have been cut in half.

You can't compare junior Tony at Nova to freshman Codi at Wake. You can compare freshman Codi at Wake to sophomore Tony at Wake. Same role. Same complementary players. Same pace.
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You realize that Madison is Madison Jones, our backup point guard. Codi is Codi Miller-McIntyre, our starting point guard. That entire post is about Tony as a backup versus Madison as a backup and their numbers this year. They're getting similar minutes in identical roles for teams that are both 2-2 in conference and have similar records. One guy hadn't played a minute of college basketball before this year. The other guy is a junior that has likely reached the peak of his capabilities.
 
FYI: Our underclassmen per 40 minutes pace adjusted (projected as though they played the entire game adjusted for our pace):

Moto: 14.0 points
Cav: 13.5 points
Chase: 12.3 points
CMM: 11.5 points
Tree: 11.3 points
Madison: 9.6 points
Devin: 9.4 points
Andre: 6.9 points
 
I certainly look forward to CMM turning it on.

I saw Tony turn it on, and it wasn't pretty. I just hate seeing a confident kid who doesn't realize he is not ACC material and is a borderline Div 1 player. That was Tony. His last game with us, he drove past his defender using his strength, but the Georgia Tech big Dan Miller rotated over and was there to defend the rim 3 steps ahead of Tony. Tony saw Miller but due to his lack of athleticism, lack of vision, lack of talent, was unable to change paths, change his decision, change anything. Miller blocked Tony's shot with his elbow. WITH HIS ELBOW.

Those type of talent decisions are thankfully few and far between this year, though some of the blocks against Clemson under the rim were a grave reminder. I like Cav and I think he's going to be a double-digit scorer for us, but he needs to learn what his weaknesses are and work to expose those as little as possible on the offensive end. Defensive end you can't cover it up as much but you can on the offensive end.
 
DCDeac said:
You realize that Madison is Madison Jones, our backup point guard. Codi is Codi Miller-McIntyre, our starting point guard. That entire post is about Tony as a backup versus Madison as a backup and their numbers this year. They're getting similar minutes in identical roles for teams that are both 2-2 in conference and have similar records. One guy hadn't played a minute of college basketball before this year. The other guy is a junior that has likely reached the peak of his capabilities.
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Jeff [Redacted] basically told Tony that Codi was going to start over him. I'm not sure that this would happen for, among other reasons, Codi has not been particularly good or consistent this year. Codi is starting because we don't have anybody better, not because he's earned the role.

I like Codi (and I think he's going to have a career hopefully similar to Justin Gray), but he's had two good games all year and most of his performances have been around average.

I'm just saying that Codi is not playing much better than Tony, by any metric, outside of 3FG%. You're welcome to prove me wrong, but outside of saying that I've lost it, you're not presenting much in terms of a case.
 
Strick, you should track Big E's career at Wake. He was an 8pt/4 rebound guy in 20 minutes his frosh year and a 12pt/6 rebound guy in 24 minutes his soph year. 16/8 his junior and senior year with more minutes.

We need three or four of the frosh to have bumps like that next year with whomever is coaching, and it would be nice to get some quality minutes out of one of the two commits.
 
Strickland33 said:
Chase is actually par for the course chartered by past three-star prospects outside of the top-100. His production from year one to year two has actually increased, along with his efficiency.

Vytas had a bad injury between his second and third year IIRC, which explains both his decline in production and the reason why he wasn't an All-ACC player for us. His sophomore year looked to be the beginning of an amazing career at Wake for Vytas...

Our freshmen are all averaging under 8 ppg. Somebody has to step up next year, but my point was, as it is now, that anybody going significantly over their per 40 minutes pace adjusted predictions on this team is kind of an unreal expectation. It's really never happened with players of our Class of 2012's caliber in recent history.
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Big E, Justin
 
jaybone said:
Strick, you should track Big E's career at Wake. He was an 8pt/4 rebound guy in 20 minutes his frosh year and a 12pt/6 rebound guy in 24 minutes his soph year. 16/8 his junior and senior year with more minutes.

We need three or four of the frosh to have bumps like that next year with whomever is coaching, and it would be nice to get some quality minutes out of one of the two commits.
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Still disappointed that Big E didn't make much of a leap forward in his senior season - really thought he would lead us with CP3 having left for the association.
 
w84it said:
Still disappointed that Big E didn't make much of a leap forward in his senior season - really thought he would lead us with CP3 having left for the association.
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CP3 is why Big E looked so good in 2005.
 
Strickland33 said:
Jeff [Redacted] basically told Tony that Codi was going to start over him. I'm not sure that this would happen for, among other reasons, Codi has not been particularly good or consistent this year. Codi is starting because we don't have anybody better, not because he's earned the role.

I like Codi (and I think he's going to have a career hopefully similar to Justin Gray), but he's had two good games all year and most of his performances have been around average.

I'm just saying that Codi is not playing much better than Tony, by any metric, outside of 3FG%. You're welcome to prove me wrong, but outside of saying that I've lost it, you're not presenting much in terms of a case.
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I don't get it. Even if I were to agree with your premise that Codi is average (he's not) and that Tony is average (he is) outside of being able to shoot the ball (Tony can't), one guy is a freshman and one guy is a reserve junior on a mediocre team. You said Tony would start over Codi and "it's not even close." And the numbers you quoted by just extending minutes to 40 (production doesn't work that way) don't even support your claim, and certainly don't support your "it's not even close" comment.

It's obvious you think [Redacted] was a dick about handling the point guard situation and you're constructing an argument to support that, even though you have no idea what really went on behind the scenes and in Tony's personal life. "This was a personal choice that has nothing to do with basketball" - is what Tony said about leaving Wake to be closer to his sick mother. His hardship claim was granted by the NCAA backing this fact.

Again, there's plenty of crap to slam [Redacted] on. That we would be in better shape starting Tony Chennault at point if [Redacted] hadn't "run him off" is not on the list. If we were struggling at the backup point position then it'd have merit, but as I showed earlier, Madison is actually putting up better numbers as a backup than Tony is right now, despite the age difference.

There's no argument here. After Cav's performance last it would make more sense to dive into the Desrosiers transfer.
 
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