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Disco Dan Talks FSU Debacle

WakeForestRanger said:
The new coach is actually getting a pretty decent hand. He's getting handed a team of upperclassmen that should be a tournament team. That'll allow him to build momentum like the team Odom handed Skip. That rising junior class could have three or four transfers to free up scholarships and not miss a beat.
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This is only true if the new coach has at least 3 scholarships* to work with for the '15 class. We need an immediate infusion of talent to boost the upperclassmen to a surefire tournament team. I don't our new coach in the position of having to put all his eggs in the 2016 basket.

Edit: provided those scholarships come from the Madison, Green, Overton, Rountree group and not the Devin, Codi, Moto, Cav group.
 
I can agree with that, RC. I can't see a coach agreeing to the job without some assurances that he can make clear out some scholarships.
 
Transfers are pretty much guaranteed and would have been with or without a coaching change.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
The best detail to debunk this "culture" myth is the fact that Tony Woods left after being given an ultimatum to sit out a year and then come back after. He himself chose to leave, he was not kicked off by [Redacted].
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To be clear..the ultimatum did not even come from the athletic department, it came from the honor council. The athletic department wanted it lessened.
 
DoubleDeacNC said:
Maybe I missed it, but why are we so certain that there will be attrition even with Buzzy back?
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Because that tends to happen when you have players who aren't getting playing time on bad teams. No one likes not being good enough to play for a losing team.

Rumors suggest that attrition is less likely with a new coach than with [Redacted]. Although a new coach would likely want to at least be able to cut some scholarships.

[Redacted] built a nice little dumpster fire here.
 
wakedeac98 said:
You are looking at things from a fans perspective. You care about the quality of product you are watching, wins and losses, tournament appearances, and long term sustainability.

Hatch and the BOT look at things from a different perspective and the above list are only secondary/minor concerns to them. You said it yourself, Hatch doesn't care about sports. If so, he's probably more of a ND fan. Hatch and the BOT care more about the business of Wake Forest. They are focused on the perception and the "culture" of Wake. And most importantly, they care about the financial state of Wake Forest.

If the basketball program was clean without huge newsworthy off the court negative stories, players were graduating, and most importantly the balance sheets were in the black then Hatch and the BOT would give Wellman a huge leash to do nearly anything he wanted to do. That's exactly what happened the first 2-3 years of the [Redacted] Error. The new ACC TV money deal and the Moracle Boys intially made up for the rank and file average Joe Deacon clubber's decreased spending. Gradually, and more recently in the last year at a greater rate, Ron is starting to lose some of the big fish who aren't buying his talk anymore. On top of that, the average Joe is become so angry and frustrated they are showing their displeasure by closing their wallets to all things Mother So Dear, not just basketball.

It takes time for the effect of this to kick in as people come up with quarterly and yearly numbers. They didn't like what they saw at 2013 year end at all, coupled with the downward trend. They are not dumb people and know that the major reason for the decline is [Redacted].

Ron does have bosses. But they think about things very differently and care about things in a different way than most everyone posting on this board does.

The [Redacted] problem is bigger than Ron Wellman now. The game is finally over this year.
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No this isn't coming from a fans perspective it's my indictment of our leadership as an amateur hour vacuum that lacks overall foresight. I think you are working from the presumption that these guys are fiscally competent when it comes to building and growing the machine. However, your third paragraph describes a reactionary regime completely caught of guard by the predictable. Myself and other posters repeatedly detailed the financial risks and hardships that Wake would incur as a whole, as a result of an ailing flagship sport. That was a over a year ago. You can talk about teachers, and show off new buildings all you want, you know the biggest entity that sells the WF brand? Chris Paul and Tim Duncan. Don't tell me, your late to the party, I've been on this shit for some time now.

Fuck, the UM Canes turned a 1 building unheard of private college into a sprawling, 30,000 student university, ranked in the top 50 with international recognition. And That was a squad with some certified thugs on it.

So no, I disagree with you. I don't believe leadership sees things as described. I think that recent results are hopefully persuading them to though.

And please no more culture nonsense. It's an irreverent word around these parts. it may rank in the pantheons of the most abused and misused verbiage of the American lexicon…like the word professional, or "expert" and "analyst" when it comes to sports shows. It's just empty, listless, twaddle.
 
Where to start, so much fodder.

Odom, yes he won two ACCT, he also won 1 ACCT game with a team that didn't have Duncan on it. Odom could coach defense, he benefited from having a floor leader like Childress and a future NBA HOF Duncan. And before we get any 'he recruited Duncan' we all know the story, we also know the first plan was to redshirt Tim before Maktar and Peral were made ineligible.

The team quitting on Odom in the ACCT vs MD followed by the Butler disaster was a great sing of future success. And let's all remember, Odom was offered a contract at the start of the season that he turned down. But Odom followed up the KS win with the close loss to UNC and then reigning in the team in a panic.

And Odom had Howard on the team but he did not hand Skip an NBA level player. If there ever was a clear sign of a Coach 'coaching' up a player Skip and Howard was it. Skip doesn't come along and Howard is playing in Europe instead of the NBA. Under Odom, fans called Howard a team cancer, Skip took Howard and taught how to channel all his energy into his game.

We can use the ACCT logic all we want with Odom, but how did L'vill get ride of Crum, who won a national championship, or GT get ride of Hewitt that got to the final 4. The goodwill from those things do not go on forever (see Grobe).

Gaudio, IMO the Wake fan base was split 50/50 between: Wellman had the guts to do the right thing and Guadio should have gotten another year. Neither a ringing endorsement. Dino's entire post season experience is about blow outs and upsets to lower seeds. He won one game against an equal challenged Texas team on a last second runner by Ish. The team no-shows for it's first 4 post season games and one miracle play makes it all right.

Not sure how anyone can go back to the Ari and JTT well anymore. Ari got his fresh chance and did nothing for team nearly as bad as Wake. JTT, talks about getting things straight this year and shortly after is off the team for academics. I think history has proven that they have spend more time with non-basket ball issues than playing basket ball.

Summary
- Odom great success but had stayed too long and could not recapture previous success. It was time for him to go
- Skip - good hires (if he could teach defense then it would have been a great hire).
- Dino - Nobody could say it out loud and the timing of Skips death made the decision tough. Most here said there was no way we could go outside the program at that point. He had more talent on his team that many wake teams that did more with less, but he not only underperformed his teams were embarrassing in the post season.
- Bzz - The most obvious coach to fire out of the group.
 
Deac83 said:
Where to start, so much fodder.

Odom, yes he won two ACCT, he also won 1 ACCT game with a team that didn't have Duncan on it. Odom could coach defense, he benefited from having a floor leader like Childress and a future NBA HOF Duncan. And before we get any 'he recruited Duncan' we all know the story, we also know the first plan was to redshirt Tim before Maktar and Peral were made ineligible.

The team quitting on Odom in the ACCT vs MD followed by the Butler disaster was a great sing of future success. And let's all remember, Odom was offered a contract at the start of the season that he turned down. But Odom followed up the KS win with the close loss to UNC and then reigning in the team in a panic.

And Odom had Howard on the team but he did not hand Skip an NBA level player. If there ever was a clear sign of a Coach 'coaching' up a player Skip and Howard was it. Skip doesn't come along and Howard is playing in Europe instead of the NBA. Under Odom, fans called Howard a team cancer, Skip took Howard and taught how to channel all his energy into his game.

We can use the ACCT logic all we want with Odom, but how did L'vill get ride of Crum, who won a national championship, or GT get ride of Hewitt that got to the final 4. The goodwill from those things do not go on forever (see Grobe).

Gaudio, IMO the Wake fan base was split 50/50 between: Wellman had the guts to do the right thing and Guadio should have gotten another year. Neither a ringing endorsement. Dino's entire post season experience is about blow outs and upsets to lower seeds. He won one game against an equal challenged Texas team on a last second runner by Ish. The team no-shows for it's first 4 post season games and one miracle play makes it all right.

Not sure how anyone can go back to the Ari and JTT well anymore. Ari got his fresh chance and did nothing for team nearly as bad as Wake. JTT, talks about getting things straight this year and shortly after is off the team for academics. I think history has proven that they have spend more time with non-basket ball issues than playing basket ball.

Summary
- Odom great success but had stayed too long and could not recapture previous success. It was time for him to go
- Skip - good hires (if he could teach defense then it would have been a great hire).
- Dino - Nobody could say it out loud and the timing of Skips death made the decision tough. Most here said there was no way we could go outside the program at that point. He had more talent on his team that many wake teams that did more with less, but he not only underperformed his teams were embarrassing in the post season.
- Bzz - The most obvious coach to fire out of the group.
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Accurate post up until the last paragraph before the summary. I'm not sure how anyone can draw conclusions either way from the Ari and JTT situations. Ari looked promising his freshman year, JTT was highly ranked coming out of high school and had very obvious physical abilities and basketball skills. Neither of them ever fulfilled that promise.

Their off the court issues began in earnest once [Redacted] showed up. You could claim coincidence or causation or anything in between.

Their subsequent history is equally inconclusive. As your point about Howard and Skip illustrates a relationship with a coach can change everything. This can just as easily go the other way. One could say it is inevitable that two teenagers who are troubled off the court and forced to change schools twice (or sit out for a year) will fail to live up to their potential. On the flip side one could say that if they were truly that talented they would have figured it out.
 
"They are focused on the perception and the "culture" of Wake. And most importantly, they care about the financial state of Wake Forest."

Ironically, the perception of Wake they so closely guarded is that of a bunch of losers. Losing culture. That is never good for the bottom line
 
FckVwls said:
I think people on this board, because they have known Bz sucks the whole time, underestimate how much popularity Bz has lost with sunshine/casual Wake fans this year
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This. Idiot ginger Tarhole trolls aside, it's obvious that even the most ardent sunshiners have accepted that Bzz needs to go or have at least resigned themselves to the fact that he's gone after this year; just take a look at the Scout board, where even Braces seems to have thrown in the towel. I've had plenty of arguments about Bzz with my dad over the past few years. He's moved from BzzIn the first 2+ seasons, to Bzz-on-the-fence after season 3, to telling me this weekend, "I could win as many games with this team as [Redacted] has." I know ippity has told a similar store about his father. It's Ron vs. the world at this point.
 
"How does it feel to know that your son was so much more correct about this Wake Forest coach, dad?"
 
My son proceeded be on the Bzouts by a year, I tried to give him a chance but oh boy was that a mistake. Thought Wellman should have canned him last year and cut back my giving in 2013. Flow must have covered my reduction and the rest of the board if you believe giving went up last year.
 
Bz darkest legacy will be losers he recruited. He failed so miserably in recruiting.
 
DoubleDeacNC said:
I get that, I'm just asking whether the AD/Buzz would cut schollys, or if someone would leave on their own.
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Transfers are likely.
Transfers are more likely if Bz returns, not less.
Any transfers would be due to the players initiative.
 
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