• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

FBI tapping all Verizon calls

WaPo has obtained a set of slides from an NSA briefing on the surveillance setup:

prism-slide-1.jpg


prism-slide-2.jpg


prism-slide-4.jpg


prism-slide-5.jpg



It's interesting that they didnt' get Apple to participate until after Jobs' death..

Did a highschooler make that PowerPoint? My eyes are bleeding
 
I have not read all this thread, so I don't know if this has been posted. The writer is not exactly a friend of big government by either party.

http://www.volokh.com/2013/06/06/the-fisa-court-order-flap-take-a-deep-breath/

[T]his is not some warrantless or extra-statutory surveillance program. The government had to persuade up to a dozen life-tenured members of the federal judiciary that the order is lawful. You may not like the legal interpretation that produced this order, but you can’t say it’s lawless.

In fact, it’s a near certainty that the underlying program has been carefully examined by all three branches of government and by both parties. As the Guardian story makes clear, Senator Ron Wyden has been agitating for years about what he called an interpretation of national security law that seems goes beyond anything the American people understood or would support. He could easily have been talking about orders like this. So it’s highly likely that the law behind this order was carefully vetted by both intelligence committees, Democrat-led in the Senate and Republican-led in the House. (Indeed, today the leaders of both committees gave interviews defending the order.) And in the executive branch, any legal interpretations adopted by the Bush administration would have been carefully scrubbed by President Obama’s Justice Department. ...

Imagine that the United States is intercepting al Qaeda communications in Yemen. Its leader there calls his weapons expert and says, “Our agent in the U.S. needs technical assistance constructing a weapon for an imminent operation. I’ve told him to use a throw-away cell phone to call you tomorrow at 11 a.m. on your throw-away phone. When you answer, he’ll give you the number of a second phone. You will buy a phone in the bazaar, and call him back on the second number at 2 p.m.”

Now, this is pretty good improvised tradecraft, and it would leave the government with no idea where or who the U.S.-based operative is or what phone numbers to monitor. It doesn’t have probable cause to investigate any particular American. But it surely does have probable cause to investigate any American who makes a call to Yemen at 11 a.m., Sanaa time, hangs up after a few seconds, and then gets a call from a different Yemeni number three hours later. Finding that person, however, isn’t easy, because the government can only identify the suspect by his calling patterns, not by his name.

So how does the NSA go about finding the one person in the United States whose calling pattern matches the terrorists’ plan? Well, it could ask every carrier to develop the capability to store all of their calls and to search them for patterns like this. But that would be very expensive, and its effectiveness is really only as good as the weakest, least cooperative carrier. And even then it wouldn’t work without massive, real-time information sharing — any reasonably intelligent U.S.-based terrorist would just buy his first throwaway phone from one carrier and his second phone from a different carrier.

The only way to make the system work, and the only way to identify and monitor the one American who is plotting with al Qaeda’s operatives in Yemen, is to pool all the carriers’ data on U.S. calls to and from Yemen and to search it all together — and for the costs to be borne by all of us, not by the carriers.

In short, the government has to do it.

With no impediment on means, the government could all but prevent all crime. But the Fourth Amendment recognizes the rights of individuals to be free from government searches and seizures without particularized suspicion. It's a balance our founders struck based on their experience with the tyranny of the crown's general warrants. I appreciate your hypothetical, but, based on this history, we the people have made a choice that some crime (and, necessarily, terrorism) is tolerable in light of the individual's countervailing rights. What is going on here strikes me as about as clear-cut a widespread violation of those rights as I can recall in my lifetime.
 
The irony is deep here. The outrage from the RWers who were silent under W is rich.
 
The irony is deep here. The outrage from the RWers who were silent under W is rich.

So we're clear who you aren't talking about, my join date on this board was February 2012.

In any event, the opposite irony is equally as rich.
 
Last edited:
With no impediment on means, the government could all but prevent all crime. But the Fourth Amendment recognizes the rights of individuals to be free from government searches and seizures without particularized suspicion. It's a balance our founders struck based on their experience with the tyranny of the crown's general warrants. I appreciate your hypothetical, but, based on this history, we the people have made a choice that some crime (and, necessarily, terrorism) is tolerable in light of the individual's countervailing rights. What is going on here strikes me as about as clear-cut a widespread violation of those rights as I can recall in my lifetime.

You would think we'd all be in agreement.
 
Apparently they have now declassified the program. Here is the official line from the government: http://swampland.time.com/2013/06/06/obama-administration-declassifies-phone-records-seizures-condemns-leaks/

It is an interesting read. Some of it makes the program sound more limited than has been reported, but a lot of it sounds like "trust us, we're the government." The Patriot Act and all fruit of that tree is poisonous, no matter which party is enforcing or voting for it.

ETA: As usual Freidersdorf over at the Atlantic nails it: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/president-obama-doesnt-welcome-debate-he-actively-thwarts-it/276639/
 
Last edited:
The big piece of the puzzle that Glenn Greenwald and others are failing to tell everyone is that once the USG has copied the data from the "pipes," the USG has software that will pull all the data together in an easy view that will paint a picture of any individual's activities for US Intelligence Analysts.

Businessweek had an article 2 years ago about the company Palantir that makes this software. I have a few friends in Intel circles that have name dropped this company to be me before about it's use. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/palantir-the-vanguard-of-cyberterror-security-11222011.html

Scary stuff man.
 
The big piece of the puzzle that Glenn Greenwald and others are failing to tell everyone is that once the USG has copied the data from the "pipes," the USG has software that will pull all the data together in an easy view that will paint a picture of any individual's activities for US Intelligence Analysts.

Businessweek had an article 2 years ago about the company Palantir that makes this software. I have a few friends in Intel circles that have name dropped this company to be me before about it's use. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/palantir-the-vanguard-of-cyberterror-security-11222011.html

Scary stuff man.

Btt
 
Friedersdorf is on a roll today. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/all-the-infrastructure-a-tyrant-would-need-courtesy-of-bush-and-obama/276635/

"But even if all the critics were proved wrong, even if the CIA, NSA, FBI, and every other branch of the federal government had been improbably filled, top to bottom, with incorruptible patriots constitutionally incapable of wrongdoing, this would still be so: The American people have no idea who the president will be in 2017. Nor do we know who'll sit on key Senate oversight committees, who will head the various national-security agencies, or whether the moral character of the people doing so, individually or in aggregate, will more closely resemble George Washington, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, John Yoo, or Vladimir Putin.

What we know is that the people in charge will possess the capacity to be tyrants -- to use power oppressively and unjustly -- to a degree that Americans in 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, or 2000 could've scarcely imagined. To an increasing degree, we're counting on having angels in office and making ourselves vulnerable to devils. Bush and Obama have built infrastructure any devil would lust after."
 
Ouch, Democratic Senator calling out Obama on MSNBC. Hard to even fathom.

The spying on members of the press could bite Obama in the ass...turned many friends to foes. And those foes have lots of free ink and airtime.
 
Back
Top