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Game of Thrones - House of the Dragon - (and beyond) Discussion (spoilers allowed)

Thought that was a fantastic episode. Only thing that sucks is season 2 won't get here till 2024. The time jumps and a few slow sections made the first season a little disjointed at times, but I thought the last 2 episodes wrapped up the world-building extremely well. Hopefully it won't fall apart like GoT did...
 
This certainly sets up season 2 to just be a bloodbath, right? The black queen goes HAM for her son dying, throne being usurped, etc...?
 
Yeah I think the final three seasons and entire Targaryen civil war is a bloodbath at large.

I thought the episode was well shot with good storytelling but also dragged a little compared to what I was expecting. All in all great season though.
 
I was shocked at the relative size of the 2 dragons at the end.
 
me too, was the other one a bebe dragon or the other one super huge? seemed odd Daemon was counting number of dragons as the main criteria but if the other side had one dragon that could just eat all other dragons dont think number of dragons matter much
 
I believe the bigger dragon there is the largest of all based on how Daemon’s late wife talked about being a dragon rider.
 
In the books. I didn't see how it added to the story at all. She was stressed and miscarried?

They have limited screen time and it just dragged to me.
The book this show pulls from is essentially a fictional textbook, so it's not like this incident is a huge piece of the narrative necessarily. IIRC, the book basically just says the child was stillborn and horrifically deformed (a harbinger of the consequences of Targaryen incest).

It would be a big deal for Rhaenyra and Daemon individually and collectively, so I'm glad it got the treatment it did. Rhaenyra loses two sons and a father in the span of about a weekend in this episode, and she can reasonably blame the Greens for all three losses (at least as far as she understands). That context is important for her character development. The scene also helps to paint her strength and resolve in the context of a world skeptical of female leadership. The Black Council meeting with her struggle as the backdrop is fantastic storytelling. The men are moving forward with the presumption that the decisions are for them to make (specifically and especially Daemon), while she is literally trying to force out this stillborn child as quickly as possible to get it over with and get on with ruling. There's also a great contrast with her labor scene in E6 which helps to set the scene of this conflict apart from the life-bringing struggle for peace during Viserys's reign. It also helps to humanize the story. We become desensitized to the blood and guts of beheadings and war, but the childbirth is still unsettling (it was for me at least). These are real and fully-fleshed out characters, and this scene is very real and fleshed out as part of the human experience.

It's also a visual representation that she can both bring life and death into the world. Essentially the choice presented to her through the Black Council.
I believe the bigger dragon there is the largest of all based on how Daemon’s late wife talked about being a dragon rider.
Vhagar is the largest known living dragon. She was one of the three primary dragons of Aegon's conquest. Balerion was ridden by Aegon, and he was the largest. Viserys was his last rider before he died. Vhagar was ridden by Visenya (Aegon's sister and wife). She was smaller than Meraxes who was ridden by Rahenys (Aegon's siter and wife). Meraxes was killed by Dorne. Vhagar is connected to Old Valyria. Arrax was placed in the crib of Lucerys and hatched when he was a baby. They are essentially the same age. I know it's much maligned, but I loved the choice the show made to have the dragon's acting on their own. Both Luke and Aemond are wielding power that they don't understand - Luke due to youth and inexperience and Aemond due to his own hubris. Viserys alludes to the power of the dragons being largely illusory. They think they control them, but that's just not entirely true. Excited to see how they flesh that out going forward.
 
@NSFWake so the dragon Daemon was singing to was Verminthor, which is the 2nd biggest dragon and does not have a rider, but is on Dragonmont, so he thinks that will even the score against Vhagar.

I really wish they hadnt spent so much time on the closeup of the stillborn baby. In the book Rhaenyra audibly blames the Greens for the death of her child, which hardens her resolve against them, as she believes they have already killed one of her children. I dont know if that came across as well in the show.


So the final scene was really what I was looking forward to this season, and I dont think it hit as hard as it could. 2 things I didnt like from a book vs show perspective. In the book Borros Baratheon tells Aemond after Luke leaves, that what he does when not under his roof is of no concern to him, pretty much giving him permission/ egging him on to go after Luke. What could have been a really developmental scene for Borros and Aemond was just dropped. Also I didn't like how the show had Aemond trying to stop Luke's death when he was really the reason for it. Don't make it the dragons' fault, own it that Aemond is an evil bastard who wants them all dead. What does it add to make it an oh shit, I didnt mean for that to happen moment.
 
They set up the younger son to die the entire episode so it wasn’t surprising. Death was -2500 after we got the close up of her finger scratching his hand before he flew away.
 
Vhagar is the largest known living dragon. She was one of the three primary dragons of Aegon's conquest. Balerion was ridden by Aegon, and he was the largest. Viserys was his last rider before he died. Vhagar was ridden by Visenya (Aegon's sister and wife). She was smaller than Meraxes who was ridden by Rahenys (Aegon's siter and wife). Meraxes was killed by Dorne. Vhagar is connected to Old Valyria. Arrax was placed in the crib of Lucerys and hatched when he was a baby. They are essentially the same age. I know it's much maligned, but I loved the choice the show made to have the dragon's acting on their own. Both Luke and Aemond are wielding power that they don't understand - Luke due to youth and inexperience and Aemond due to his own hubris. Viserys alludes to the power of the dragons being largely illusory. They think they control them, but that's just not entirely true. Excited to see how they flesh that out going forward.

I agree about the power of dragons vs control aspect. It is a great story line to develop and they handled it well in season 1.

I am also assuming that Daemon was trying to win/control the dragon who has been laying all the eggs when he was in that cave

ETA, I see answer above
 
@NSFWake so the dragon Daemon was singing to was Verminthor, which is the 2nd biggest dragon and does not have a rider, but is on Dragonmont, so he thinks that will even the score against Vhagar.

I really wish they hadnt spent so much time on the closeup of the stillborn baby. In the book Rhaenyra audibly blames the Greens for the death of her child, which hardens her resolve against them, as she believes they have already killed one of her children. I dont know if that came across as well in the show.


So the final scene was really what I was looking forward to this season, and I dont think it hit as hard as it could. 2 things I didnt like from a book vs show perspective. In the book Borros Baratheon tells Aemond after Luke leaves, that what he does when not under his roof is of no concern to him, pretty much giving him permission/ egging him on to go after Luke. What could have been a really developmental scene for Borros and Aemond was just dropped. Also I didn't like how the show had Aemond trying to stop Luke's death when he was really the reason for it. Don't make it the dragons' fault, own it that Aemond is an evil bastard who wants them all dead. What does it add to make it an oh shit, I didnt mean for that to happen moment.
I agree on the first bit about Barros.

I dont agree on the second. I think the show is doing a great job with quite a few characters of showing that this is a family civil war, and thought they really dont like each other, they are still family (and those lines are on a knife's edge). We see it with all the cousins, we see it with Alicent and Rhaenyra, and we definitely see it with Viserys at the dinner table a few episodes back. It really emphasizes how power and the game of thrones can even divide a family

I dont think that scene was designed to show Aemond trying to stop Luke's death as much as it was designed to show that Aemond is dealing with a beast that is more powerful than him, as DV7 mentioned above. But I also think it is designed to show that Aemond understood that Luke dying definitely was going to kick start the war in a way that usurping the throne hadnt yet. There was still some hope for resolution (albiet not great) before that moment. And even if he was ok with the idea of his bastard cousins dying in a war, that was different than them dying by his dragons hand before a war had technically started
 
I should add that I agree with you that it deviated from source text, I just think these changes are helpful from a story perspective
 
I should add that I agree with you that it deviated from source text, I just think these changes are helpful from a story perspective
Did you notice Daemon said the Greens have 3 adult dragons, but then says we have 13 to their 4. Leaving open the possibility of Daeron coming in next season with a juvenile dragon. Its some shitty story telling to say oh and here is Viserys and Alicent's other son that you have never seen or spoken of that thas been living with his great uncle.
 
I agree on the first bit about Barros.

I dont agree on the second. I think the show is doing a great job with quite a few characters of showing that this is a family civil war, and thought they really dont like each other, they are still family (and those lines are on a knife's edge). We see it with all the cousins, we see it with Alicent and Rhaenyra, and we definitely see it with Viserys at the dinner table a few episodes back. It really emphasizes how power and the game of thrones can even divide a family

I dont think that scene was designed to show Aemond trying to stop Luke's death as much as it was designed to show that Aemond is dealing with a beast that is more powerful than him, as DV7 mentioned above. But I also think it is designed to show that Aemond understood that Luke dying definitely was going to kick start the war in a way that usurping the throne hadnt yet. There was still some hope for resolution (albiet not great) before that moment. And even if he was ok with the idea of his bastard cousins dying in a war, that was different than them dying by his dragons hand before a war had technically started
He's also trying to prove he should be king, and he screwed up what he was asked to do. That and he seems genuinely loyal to his immediate family who he put in harms way.
 
Did you notice Daemon said the Greens have 3 adult dragons, but then says we have 13 to their 4. Leaving open the possibility of Daeron coming in next season with a juvenile dragon. Its some shitty story telling to say oh and here is Viserys and Alicent's other son that you have never seen or spoken of that thas been living with his great uncle.
This is clearly the case. The show runners have said as much multiple times.
 
Still shitty story telling. I dont think the show runners talking about it outside of the show changes the impact of just adding another son next season.
I don't disagree. I still don't think I would have wanted more than a throw away exposition line on the subject added to this season though.
 
@NSFWake so the dragon Daemon was singing to was Verminthor, which is the 2nd biggest dragon and does not have a rider, but is on Dragonmont, so he thinks that will even the score against Vhagar.

I really wish they hadnt spent so much time on the closeup of the stillborn baby. In the book Rhaenyra audibly blames the Greens for the death of her child, which hardens her resolve against them, as she believes they have already killed one of her children. I dont know if that came across as well in the show.


So the final scene was really what I was looking forward to this season, and I dont think it hit as hard as it could. 2 things I didnt like from a book vs show perspective. In the book Borros Baratheon tells Aemond after Luke leaves, that what he does when not under his roof is of no concern to him, pretty much giving him permission/ egging him on to go after Luke. What could have been a really developmental scene for Borros and Aemond was just dropped. Also I didn't like how the show had Aemond trying to stop Luke's death when he was really the reason for it. Don't make it the dragons' fault, own it that Aemond is an evil bastard who wants them all dead. What does it add to make it an oh shit, I didnt mean for that to happen moment.
Apparently that final scene was much more deliberate by Aemond and gruesome in the books. In the books he clearly wants to kill Luke and even goes and finds his body and removes his eyes to give to his new bride.
 
Apparently that final scene was much more deliberate by Aemond and gruesome in the books. In the books he clearly wants to kill Luke and even goes and finds his body and removes his eyes to give to his new bride.
It's also important to remember that the book isn't a direct first person account. The showrunners have taken some liberties because the source material is similar to biblical writing where the accounts are written years after the event. The most direct first hand source is mushroom who is likely unreliable.
 
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