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How concerned are you about the climate impacts your child will witness or experience?

How concerned are you about the climate impacts your child will witness or experience?

  • Extremely concerned

    Votes: 17 20.5%

  • Very concerned

    Votes: 24 28.9%

  • Somewhat concerned

    Votes: 16 19.3%

  • Not that concerned

    Votes: 18 21.7%

  • Not at all concerned

    Votes: 8 9.6%
  • Total voters
    83
scooter84 said:
I guess you are right but it still seems a little ridiculous, right? Essentially you are taking money away from the consumers and giving it to the producers. If the purpose of subsidizing production is to make the product available more cheaply then why not just drop the taxes and stop subsidizing? That would theoretically accomplish the same thing? I am sure the magnitude is different on the two ends and I am sure there are other reasons why it is not the same thing... But, it sounds like we are just running money in a circle through the government where the government overhead is going to suck up a bunch of it...
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Subsidies aren't just to make the product cheaper, but to make sure that it's available period.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Subsidies aren't just to make the product cheaper, but to make sure that it's available period.
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Because many products wouldn't be profitable without the subsidies.

A lot of capitalists hate government interference but don't acknowledge how government greases the wheels of capitalism.
 
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PhDeac said:
Because many products wouldn't be profitable without the subsidies.
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I understand that. So without the subsidies the manufacturers would have to raise their prices, making the products more expensive for the consumers. My point was, without the taxes the product prices would come back down - I don't know the relative magnitudes on either end so I don't know whether the net would make the products more or less expensive to the consumer but either way, for petroleum products, we have proven in the past that the demand is mostly independent of price - people aren't going to stop buying gas or stop heating their homes. So I don't think there is a danger of gasoline or other petroleum products becoming unavailable.
And, if they become more expensive they will reach a point where EVs and solar panels and personal wind turbines become more attractive - then people will buy them, which was the goal in the first place, right?
 
The taxes help pay for the subsidies.
 
scooter84 said:
Hahaha... Again, it is a circle with the waste and overhead of government sucking out their share.
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Not sure how you can say government is "sucking out their share" here. The subsidies go to business profits and keep the whole capitalism house of cards upright.
 
scooter84 said:
Hahaha... Again, it is a circle with the waste and overhead of government sucking out their share.
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The vast majority of government collected gas taxes help fund the roads people drive on. I don't think this is even close to a good example of "government sucking out their share." Seems like a user tax as well as the government maintaining something for the common good.
 
PhDeac said:
Not sure how you can say government is "sucking out their share" here. The subsidies go to business profits and keep the whole capitalism house of cards upright.
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Once again for the people in the back
 
An obscene amount of profits consolidating in the hands of a few… is that waste?
 
birdman said:
What exactly is the government wasting here?
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Do y'all really not understand the point? The gov is taking tax money from one group that is buying a commodity (making the commodity more expensive) and giving it to another group that is manufacturing the commodity (making the commodity cheaper). (I'm ignoring for the moment the portion of the tax money that is used to maintain and build roads - that is obviously important)
Whatever portion of those taxes that goes to fund the subsidies is simply moving in a circle - serving purposes that are contradictory. There is obviously going to be overhead (costs) associated with collecting those taxes and with distributing those subsidies - that is what I meant by the government sucking out a share.

If I wanted to make lawncare more affordable for the elderly that live in my town I might subsidize a small lawncare firm to provide those services to the tune of $5k a year. So now the company can afford to provide the services for $30/month when it would have cost $40. But I need money to fund those subsidies so I charge the elderly a tax on those services of $5/month. So the service actually costs them $35/month. They are still saving $5/month but there are 100 customers so I am collecting $6000/year (5*100*12). (I realize $5k/year across 100 customers is only $4.15 a month per customer but maybe there are economies of scale or something that allow them to knock of $10/month...)
The extra $1000 is wasted on my overhead of collecting the taxes and distributing the subsidies. Instead maybe it would make sense to cut out the subsidies and the taxes and spend the $1000 in overhead on something else to improve the lives for the elderly that would make them able to afford the $40...

I don't know - that was probably a terrible example off the top of my head but I was just trying to illustrate my thoughts...
 
I am not about to craft an eloquent defense of oil and gas subsidies, I think they are insane. We should be making gas more expensive to produce and distribute not less. But I kind of hate the knee jerk response that government workers that collect the tax and distribute the revenue are "overhead" and "waste." Those people are working and filling a role to serve society and that's where most of the money the government "sucks" up goes. The subsidies are the wasteful part here not the workers collecting the taxes.
 
scooter84 said:
Do y'all really not understand the point? The gov is taking tax money from one group that is buying a commodity (making the commodity more expensive) and giving it to another group that is manufacturing the commodity (making the commodity cheaper).
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I feel like if you dwindle a lot of economic things down to just this type of analysis, you'd be shocked a lot. My general response would just be, there is more going on with gas tax and subsidies for fossil fuels than money just coming out of my pocket into BP's pocket.
 
Commodities should flow through an economy. A big problem is hoarding at the top.
 
birdman said:
I am not about to craft an eloquent defense of oil and gas subsidies, I think they are insane. We should be making gas more expensive to produce and distribute not less. But I kind of hate the knee jerk response that government workers that collect the tax and distribute the revenue are "overhead" and "waste." Those people are working and filling a role to serve society and that's where most of the money the government "sucks" up goes. The subsidies are the wasteful part here not the workers collecting the taxes.
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Yeah I don't generally believe in subsidizing commodities.
 
Republican candidates are asked to raise their hands if they believe in man-made climate change

No one is brave enough to do it

DeSantis deflects and Ramaswamy calls it a hoax

We’re fucked
 
birdman said:
I am not about to craft an eloquent defense of oil and gas subsidies, I think they are insane. We should be making gas more expensive to produce and distribute not less. But I kind of hate the knee jerk response that government workers that collect the tax and distribute the revenue are "overhead" and "waste." Those people are working and filling a role to serve society and that's where most of the money the government "sucks" up goes. The subsidies are the wasteful part here not the workers collecting the taxes.
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You can delete the word "waste" if you like but the resources used to collect taxes and distribute subsidies are clearly overhead.
 
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