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Hypothetical: Who Replaces Bz at the end of the season?

DCDeac said:
Gotcha. There are no valid arguments to any side other than yours.

You must have absolutely hated Clawson discussing culture as an absolute necessity in program building, and listing it as one of his primary goals at Wake Forest. You also must have both played for Dino and simultaneously worked directly for the Athletic Department to label yourself the end-all be-all judge of the validity of these arguments.

I really enjoy the posters so insecure and desperate in their irrational fandom that they feel the need to berate and constantly argue against - NOT people who support [Redacted] - but people who argue for his firing but recognize at least some reasoning throughout his tenure here, ill-fated though it may have been. Nope, that's hypocrisy... He's an idiot, Wellman's an idiot, they can barely tie their shoes and have no business anywhere near any Wake Forest sports program.

Yeah, that's the rational, valid side of the argument.

It boils down to:
"[Redacted] was a bad hire and he hasn't gotten it done here. He should be fired short of an NCAA appearance this year. I understand part of what Wellman was going for and our program had some legitimate issues, but it's been a failure regardless."

"Bullshit. Wellman had no clue what he was doing, he's a liar and a fraud, [Redacted] is a garbage failure in life and anyone who doesn't completely agree is a moron who should have been fired after the first year."

Note that some posters in the 2nd group were predicting a 13 win season, that Wellman would be content with Grobe, that he would screw up the subsequent hire, etc...
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To be fair - Clawson hasn't gotten here yet and he's succeeding a dude who built and tore down a program in most fans' lifetimes. He's saying all the right things and has a solid resume to match. If only Buzz (or Ron, for that matter) started off on the right foot like that, but it was a PR nightmare from Day One.

I'll give you this, though: I was less skeptical than I was about [Redacted]'s resume than I was about Dino Gaudio's when both men were hired. The difference is that Gaudio won games, and didn't come off as a dick 99% of the time while winning. I think that's still a pretty key element in all of this.
 
DCDeac said:
That is inane.

You're the one inserting the term "clean house" to support this nonsense. And the rest is simply a hollow argument based on rhetoric. Start listing your facts and drop the philosophy 101 shit.
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The facts as you have stated them on this thread.

The AD knew about all or some of the off the court issues that befell the program before firing Dino/Hiring [Redacted]

The program was in a shitty situation when [Redacted] got hired.

That Dino was fired because of some of these off the court issues which created the shitty situation.

That Wellman initially lied about this because that is his job.

“But you look at the hire and the only way you can make any sense of it is if he wanted to rebuild the program. You look at the incidents, you look at the hire, the questionable timing of the Dino firing - it all adds up.” (Direct Quote)

So in summary: Wellman knew about the culture problems, He fired Dino because of the culture problems, He hired [Redacted] to clean up the culture problems, He initially lied about his reasons for the firing/hiring because it’s his job to paint the program in a good light.

Those are the facts that you stated on this thread. I will assume them to be true for the sake of argument.



These are the facts that are public knowledge.

Wellman extended Dino on October 14th 2009.

Wellman fired Dino on April 7th, 2010

Wellman hired [Redacted] on April 13th, 2010

[Redacted] retained all of Dino’s assistants

[Redacted] vigorously re-recruited all of Dino’s recruits

[Redacted] retained all of Dino’s players that were planning on coming back.

Tony Woods is the only player to leave before the season starts. [Redacted] asked him to stay.
Ari Stewart leaves at the end of the season.

JT Terrell leaves before the beginning of the next season.


Combining those facts your argument is that at some point between extending Dino in October and firing Dino in April Wellman became displeased with the direction of the program because of the off the court culture of the players and Dino’s inability to rein in that culture.

He then forced his newly hired coach to keep every piece of the program the same including the recruiting class.

This means 1 of 2 things.

1. He knew that some of the recruits and returning players were bad apples but kept them and the majority of the influences they had around.

Or

2.He based his decision of firing Dino solely on the actions of 1 or 2 players who had already left the program.

Both of those options demonstrate incompetence.

And technically its Philosophy 121 (or it used to be)
 
bobknightfan said:
I've never said they shouldn't leave early, rj.....only that I don't personally want to invest my support in teams with players who are doing so.

Do you know of someone on this board who has stated that these players should not leave early? .....because it wasn't me.
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So, you're not going to support young men chasing their small window of opportunity to make millions of dollars before the age of 30? That's effed, bob. I guess you don't use computers, then? Or cell phones? Or fantasy baseball platforms?
 
There are so many assumptions in that. You say stuff about how you don't have any inside info then you post things about how someone "forced" something or facts about the Woods discussions you know nothing about. You also seem to assume that it would have been feasible to simply dump our committed recruits and players before a single day of practice with [Redacted], which is laughable.

You're constructing an argument to fit your conclusion. What does it even mean to "know a recruit is a bad apple" and how would Wellman, of all people - not coaches, but Wellman - know that? Especially to the extent he'd dictate pulling their scholly.... Option 2 makes no sense at all.

This is beyond boring and pointless. Believe whatever you want.
 
DCDeac said:
There are so many assumptions in that. You say stuff about how you don't have any inside info then you post things about how someone "forced" something or facts about the Woods discussions you know nothing about. You also seem to assume that it would have been feasible to simply dump our committed recruits and players before a single day of practice with [Redacted], which is laughable.

You're constructing an argument to fit your conclusion. What does it even mean to "know a recruit is a bad apple" and how would Wellman, of all people - not coaches, but Wellman - know that? Especially to the extent he'd dictate pulling their scholly.... Option 2 makes no sense at all.

This is beyond boring and pointless. Believe whatever you want.
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Technically there are two assumptions. If I recall the one about Tony was pretty well reported on the boards as that situation was developing. The assumption about Wellman forcing Bzz to retain the assistants/recruits seems pretty reasonable based on what insiders were saying at the time and the fact that coaches rarely (if ever) keep all of the assistants of a coach that just got fired.

As to the bold, you tell me. You are the one who used the JTT situation as some evidence that the program needed cleaning up and that Wellman knew about it when he hired [Redacted].

I dont think Wellman could have or did know any of the recruits were going to be a problem. I also don't think he could have known Tony was going to push his girlfriend, or that Ty and Melvin were going to steal laptops or whatever it is they did.

In fact I have maintained that there was no player related incident between October 2009 and April 2010 which could have changed Wellman's view about the off court culture of the basketball team.

If that's the case then Wellman either extended Dino when he believed the program had a culture problem or Dino's firing and [Redacted]'s hiring had nothing to do with cleaning up the culture of our basketball program.

If it's the former then Wellman is incompetent. You reject the latter. I leave you to work out the rest of that logic.
 
PhDeac said:
The last two basketball coaches Wellman fired/let go made the NCAA Tournament.

But we are supposed to be happy about the NIT.
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Given what the AD/BOD asked during the last coaching transition vs the prior coaches, what actually happened during the transition in Years 1-2 where we gutted the program, and given we now have basically a team of sophs...I think NIT is a reasonable minimum expectation, with the NCAAs the following year.

If we change coaches at the end of the year, I'll have the same expectations of NCAAs next year. They'd be walking into a good situation.
 
wellman is also on record saying all kids are vetted by the athletic department.
 
NCAA sanctions would have less onerous than telling Bz his first two years don't count. If Wellman actually told him that he should be fired. That is just unbelievable.
 
Hell, NCAA sanctions (the hypothetical ones that Bzzinners claim were imminent despite no actual evidence) would have been less damaging to the program and Wake's standing in college basketball than what Buzz managed to do to the team the last 3 years. And no, BKF, this isn't me saying that I believe we should cheat, NCAA be damned, no matter how you want to twist it.
 
deaclite said:
NCAA sanctions would have less onerous than telling Bz his first two years don't count. If Wellman actually told him that he should be fired. That is just unbelievable.
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Wellman publicly stated several times that winning wasn't important during those years. The assumption by everyone here seemed to be that he was covering for Bz incompetence but I don't think that was the case, Wellman was being straight up. THEY actually hired Bz under those terms. That's why the "insiders" haven't had a problem with Bz either.

Think about it. What makes more sense.

Bz was hired under those terms so Wellman/the BOD have given him the slack to clean house and a longer time frame to succeed...as basically stated by Wellman.

Or

Wellman/the BOD, all highly respected and successful people, are total idiots to the complete and utter disaster of Bz as a bball coach and only the fans see reality....which is believed by a lot of fans.
 
The insiders haven't had a problem with Buzz? BabyDeac and KVegas would probably disagree with that statement. Unless, of course, you're talking about Deman, for whom preserving bottom-level access seemingly reigns supreme over the love of family, faith, country, and self.
 
Two of the BOT were classmates of mine in MBA school and run investment firms in the northeast. So I'm pretty sure they aren't that up on our basketball program. Wellman probably played his "trust me" card to get his way.
 
pourdeac said:
Wellman publicly stated several times that winning wasn't important during those years. The assumption by everyone here seemed to be that he was covering for Bz incompetence but I don't think that was the case, Wellman was being straight up. THEY actually hired Bz under those terms. That's why the "insiders" haven't had a problem with Bz either.

Think about it. What makes more sense.

Bz was hired under those terms so Wellman/the BOD have given him the slack to clean house and a longer time frame to succeed...as basically stated by Wellman.

Or

Wellman/the BOD, all highly respected and successful people, are total idiots to the complete and utter disaster of Bz as a bball coach and only the fans see reality....which is believed by a lot of fans.
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You have no clue what you are talking about.
 
deaclite said:
Two of the BOT were classmates of mine in MBA school and run investment firms in the northeast. So I'm pretty sure they aren't that up on our basketball program. Wellman probably played his "trust me" card to get his way.
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Bingo. Wellman spelled out a plan (course and choice of coach) and the BOD/insiders bought into it....been saying that since the beginning. They might have a problem with Wellman's decision...in hindsight...but from what I've heard, they don't really have all the issues with Bz that the fans on here have.

I think they recognize he has major PR issues and question his coaching because of the results like they should, but they also know THEY signed off on cleaning house and this entire venture...and part of that was agreeing to Bz getting throw away years. I think the situation makes them very uncomfortable....or did. The Clawson hire takes tremendous pressure off Wellman though....which is what my original point was in this thread I believe.
 
RacerDeac said:
I know of plenty of donor and AD employee insiders that have problems with Bz.
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He's given the chalk talk to the Moricle Society before every game this season, something Dino never did in three full seasons. Not refuting your point though.
 
Dino Gaudino said:
He's given the chalk talk to the Moricle Society before every game this season, something Dino never did in three full seasons. Not refuting your point though.
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i.e. he's doing his best to win support? What did he do the last 3 seasons? In his 4th year, something tells me the only people who would show up to a Buzz chalk talk are those who still support him. Much like Wellman's head, it's an echo chamber. Everyone else has checked out.
 
RacerDeac said:
i.e. he's doing his best to win support? What did he do the last 3 seasons? In his 4th year, something tells me the only people who would show up to a Buzz chalk talk are those who still support him. Much like Wellman's head, it's an echo chamber. Everyone else has checked out.
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I think it's more of a situation where people will be in there anyway since they put out a food spread with an open bar.
 
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