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Israel Attacked and its Response

2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
We really just need #science to weigh in on this. Whoops, sorry, this is not your Holy Land. We were wrong for thousands of years, your Holy Land has been recently factually discovered to be located in the gorgeous Wuhan province, and we will help finance you on your pilgrimage there. It is filled with clean fresh air, drinkable water, glorious open air food markets, and friendly animals of all shapes and sizes.
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Liquid Karma said:
Why can't you believe it? He very clearly sides with Israel.
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Yeah totally believable that he's going there. From a completely political standpoint, it's a super risky visit with the inevitable ground invasion and public support might rapidly deteriorate if this thing really goes tits up and escalates into a global conflict. Putting aside my personal thoughts on the conflict, the ways in which this visit can age very poorly doesn't make the risk/reward add up to me. Maybe I'm overthinking it though.
 
Biden going to Israel to me shows the administration remains very worried about a broader war kicking off. Seems like Blinken made progress on terms needed to get aid in. But no progress has been made on getting civilians any path out and Egypt was clear in a meeting with France yesterday they do not want to take civilians across the border. Attacks on Hamas leaders found in southern Gaza yesterday is also not a good sign for what is to come. The PA’s condemnation of Hamas yesterday is somewhat helpful I guess. A nod to Biden’s statement on Sunday that the elimination of Hamas has to occur while reiterating the need for a viable two state solution.
 
Frosty said:
Yeah totally believable that he's going there. From a completely political standpoint, it's a super risky visit with the inevitable ground invasion and public support might rapidly deteriorate if this thing really goes tits up and escalates into a global conflict. Putting aside my personal thoughts on the conflict, the ways in which this visit can age very poorly doesn't make the risk/reward add up to me. Maybe I'm overthinking it though.
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Not a bad take IMO. But asymmetric risk in life often means you push aside any limited reward to act on the risk. And while this is a polyannish hope on my part, maybe Biden knows the risk is lower than we think for that broader conflict. I don’t believe that is the case. But we don’t know what he knows.
 
I have always wondered why Egypt and Jordan and Lebanon do not do more for the Palestinians in terms of land and basic necessities. I realize this is a very complicated situation but has there ever been a meaningful effort by these countries besides just hating Israel with the Palestinian? Forgive me if this question shows ignorance
 
JohnToms said:
I have always wondered why Egypt and Jordan and Lebanon do not do more for the Palestinians in terms of land and basic necessities. I realize this is a very complicated situation but has there ever been a meaningful effort by these countries besides just hating Israel with the Palestinian? Forgive me if this question shows ignorance
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I mean each of those nation's relationships with Palestine is similarly filled with different tensions/aims/goals in the Middle East as well. The one consistent aspect seems to be each countries' population's contempt for Israel
 
Egypt and Lebanon share intelligence with Hamas and vice versa but blockades and sanctions make a lot more aid very difficult.

Jordan is a bit of a different story. Biden will visit Jordan too, an important relationship with Palestine, one of the vocal advocates for a Palestinian state the US will work with.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I mean each of those nation's relationships with Palestine is similarly filled with different tensions/aims/goals in the Middle East as well. The one consistent aspect seems to be each countries' population's contempt for Israel
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At least part of it is that there would be no way for Egypt to assure that Hamas, who Egypt has a long standing issue with, would not be coming over among the rest of the Palestinian refugees. There is also a bigger political issue that they fear right of return may be denied and that they would be stuck with over a million refugees. And Europe has already been flooded with Muslim refugees and seems to have had their fill.
 
TownieDeac said:
Egypt and Lebanon share intelligence with Hamas and vice versa but blockades and sanctions make a lot more aid very difficult.

Jordan is a bit of a different story. Biden will visit Jordan too, an important relationship with Palestine, one of the vocal advocates for a Palestinian state the US will work with.
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Is he going to visit Saudi Arabia? They would seem to be the biggest potential player in brokering a lasting peace.
 
Yeah - I find it hard to reconcile supporting IDF and Israel on a morality basis because of semantics of "they don't use human shields" when this is going on with civilians.

Not to mention the bombing of one of the only two passageways they told folks to use within Gaza.
 
I keep the broader Iran vs. the sunnis idea in view when thinking about this conflict. Obviously no Arab populace offers support for Israel. But more broadly the Israelis and many governments have grown more aligned or tolerant of each other over the last 20+ years within the scope of that tension. So put aside Israel and you pretty much have Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas on one side and Saudi, Jordan, Egypt and numerous other states on the other.

- Egypt views Hamas as destabilizing to their own government. It has helped blockade Gaza on and off since 2008 and even co-operated with Israel in doing so. One reason they have refused to open their border for refugees is to avoid Hamas infiltrating their country (they have other reasons too). They have even refused to open that border in the past to allow kids to gain passage to other countries so they can get medical treatment (and at least one of those kids died).

- Lebanon is pretty much a failed state and is subjected to much of what Hezbollah decides. Yes, you’re a government but sort of in name only.

- 1994 Jordan and Israel sign a peace accord. They have recently been in advanced discussions about exchanging solar power for desalinated water. Completely unthinkable a generation ago.

- UAE, Bahrain, Morocco and Sudan all normalize relations with Israel in the last 3-4 years.

- Israel and Saudi in discussions to normalize relations (which would kick on others to do so as well). They have exchanged military training and intelligence about Iran too.

- PA has acknowledged Israel’s right to exist. It just condemned the actions of Hamas a day or two ago.

Just look at the playbook Biden has been discussing this week. Hamas has to be exterminated and a viable two state solution needs to happen. Who loses in that scenario? Iran, the regime who pushes the most divisive and populist narrative Who gains? Everyone who is at tension with Iran. Thing I don’t think anyone can answer is how Gaza is governed if Hamas is cut out. But Hamas staying assures there will be more fights, incursions and wars going forward. What will Iran do if Israel invades Gaza?
 
Deacsfan27 said:
Yeah - I find it hard to reconcile supporting IDF and Israel on a morality basis because of semantics of "they don't use human shields" when this is going on with civilians.

Not to mention the bombing of one of the only two passageways they told folks to use within Gaza.
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In re: that corridor south bombing I would not presume it was the Israeli’s. More than one analyst has slowed down that tape (30 frames a second) and there is no sign of any projectile arriving. And the explosion is more consistent with a gas IED than any aerial ordinance. No one can conclude it wasn’t Israel. But no one can conclude it was either.

Not figuring out aid and remaining steadfast to a siege is inexcusable morally and practically stupid.
 
If you are of the belief that Hamas or any terrorist group can be “removed”, you should know that terrorism can never be removed by creating the exact conditions of suffering that allowed it to flourish. This is just not an honest military philosophy, it’s blood lust posing as strategy.
 
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