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MBB Game 30: GT - LJVM - Tuesday 9 pm - ACCN

Pilchard said:
For those that are convinced this all falls on Forbes, go with that. Just amazing how this board waffles on him after each game. GT has now beaten UNC, Duke, Clemson and WF; those results have nothing to do with the randomness of sports, but Damon Stoudamire outcoached his adversary in each of those games. Also, when WF won each of its 18 games, including beating Duke 10 days ago, that was just the awesomeness of the WF roster.
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It doesn't all fall on forbes obviously but this is the third year in a row of late season collapses and missed opportunities. Just curious on how many years you think he should get without making a tournament?
 
If you are looking for consistency, college basketball probably shouldn't be your thing.
 
Pilchard said:
If you are looking for consistency, college basketball probably shouldn't be your thing.
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You happy with how this season has worked out so far? Do you think that Coach Forbes has deserves an A for his performance this season?

Several things are true.
1. Wake was favored by (I believe) 13 points last night. Randomness of certain shots going in probably shouldn't have anything to do with whether you lose as a 13 point favorite, but let's call yesterday bad luck. And let's assume that the bad luck of the GT game balances out the good luck vs Miami.
2. We have also consistently shit the bed against equivalent or lesser teams on the road this year. That is not randomness- it is the model of consistency.
3. We don't seem to have any depth- while injuries certainly have an impact on the depth, we have been short of depth all 3 of the real seasons Forbes has coached. That isn't random either.
4. Forbes has had an awful year personally.


How you weigh all of those things will impact your view of whether Forbes should continue as Wake's coach, but let's not pretend that there are not pretty good reasons to doubt his abilities.
 
ironwill24 said:
It doesn't all fall on forbes obviously but this is the third year in a row of late season collapses and missed opportunities. Just curious on how many years you think he should get without making a tournament?
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Forbes initial contract committed WF to him through 2026. Then, after the 2022, season "WF signed Forbes to a long-term extension".
The link

Don't believe that the terms were ever disclosed, but the speculation was that the contract ran through the end of the decade, which would be 2029, and I'm guessing its probably a year or two longer than that. So, unless Forbes pulls a couple of consecutive 6-14 ACC seasons like the previous coach, don't see WF with the appetite to buy him out ever.

Also, the money behind the basketball program loves Forbes; and rather than saving their money for a buy-out, those guys are throwing their money behind NIL and facility upgrades to help the program. Unless the Forbes-out group here are culling $millions to trump Shah and Sutton, WF isn't firing Forbes. That is the reality.
 
Pilchard said:
If you are looking for consistency, college basketball probably shouldn't be your thing.
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Pilchard, you know full well there are programs out there which are models for what we want to do, and what we should be able to do.

None of them is perfectly consistent, but yet somehow year in and year out they’re making noise in the tournament. Wake has the potential to be one of them. And yet you’re fond of making excuses for why we aren’t.

You’re too smart for that. Not to mention sometimes too sensitive about criticisms of Wake Forest athletic programs and coaches.
 
Pilchard said:
Forbes initial contract committed WF to him through 2026. Then, after the 2022, season "WF signed Forbes to a long-term extension".
The link

Don't believe that the terms were ever disclosed, but the speculation was that the contract ran through the end of the decade, which would be 2029, and I'm guessing its probably a year or two longer than that. So, unless Forbes pulls a couple of consecutive 6-14 ACC seasons like the previous coach, don't see WF with the appetite to buy him out ever.

Also, the money behind the basketball program loves Forbes; and rather than saving their money for a buy-out, those guys are throwing their money behind NIL and facility upgrades to help the program. Unless the Forbes-out group here are culling $millions to trump Shah and Sutton, WF isn't firing Forbes. That is the reality.
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Like I said, at least two more years.
 
DeaconSig said:
You happy with how this season has worked out so far? Do you think that Coach Forbes has deserves an A for his performance this season?

Several things are true.
1. Wake was favored by (I believe) 13 points last night. Randomness of certain shots going in probably shouldn't have anything to do with whether you lose as a 13 point favorite, but let's call yesterday bad luck. And let's assume that the bad luck of the GT game balances out the good luck vs Miami.
2. We have also consistently shit the bed against equivalent or lesser teams on the road this year. That is not randomness- it is the model of consistency.
3. We don't seem to have any depth- while injuries certainly have an impact on the depth, we have been short of depth all 3 of the real seasons Forbes has coached. That isn't random either.
4. Forbes has had an awful year personally.


How you weigh all of those things will impact your view of whether Forbes should continue as Wake's coach, but let's not pretend that there are not pretty good reasons to doubt his abilities.
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FWIW, I'm not a Steve Forbes in or out guy. Just know that he's not getting fired after this year or next year or the year after that, barring a scandal or consecutive seasons like 2023 and 2024 L'ville. So, we can spend the next 8 months arguing whether he should be fired, but it's not happening.

Could not be more bummed about the last 3 games. Expected the ND game to be tight; it was a bad spot. Sucks that Sallis played poorly. ND did the same thing to Clemson (who I think is very good) last weekend. VT plays great at home, and they have offensive talent. WF is not a good road team. The way WF lost sucked after leading early, but the loss was not a surprise. Last night was hugely disappointing. The only way WF was going to lose was for GT to be unconcious from three and for WF to struggle from three. Even so, WF wins if GT's center doesn't hit a shot out of his ass. Season is probably shattered. It blows. Just not ready to say Forbes will never make an NCAAT or WF has hit its ceiling with Forbes as coach. Think injuries, lack of depth and bad luck (which explains why WF is 4th in the ACC in every analytical ranking, but is now 7th in the standings) conspired against WF, and agree that seems to happen to WF more than others.
 
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Pilchard said:
FWIW, I'm not a Steve Forbes in or out guy. Just know that he's not getting fired after this year or next year or the year after that, barring a scandal or consecutive seasons like 2023 and 2024 L'ville. So, we can spend the next 8 months arguing whether he should be fired, but it's not happening.

Could not be more bummed about the last 3 games. Expected the ND game to be tight; it was a bad spot. Sucks that Sallis played poorly. ND did the same thing to Clemson (who I think is very good) last weekend. VT plays great at home, and they have offensive talent. WF is not a good road team. The way WF lost sucked after leading early, but the loss was not a surprise. Last night was hugely disappointing. The only way WF was going to lose was for GT to be unconcious from three and for WF to struggle from three. Even so, WF wins if GT's center doesn't hit a shot out of his ass. Season is probably shattered. It blows. Just not ready to say Forbes will never make an NCAAT or WF has hit its ceiling with Forbes as coach. Think injuries, lack of depth and bad luck (which explains why WF is 4th in the ACC in every analytical ranking, but is now 7th in the standings) conspired against WF, and agree that seems to happen to WF more than others.
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Agree, think that our guys are wearing down a bit and the lack of depth has hurt especially with Monsanto not playing. Parker is good but needs to get stronger defensively. When you clock as many minutes as our starters then you are not going to be sharp every game. Really could use a strong big forward and a true point guard. Like Boopie but he is no Tyree. Would be feeling alot better if that travel call was called at the end (despite not playing well)
 
Pilchard said:
FWIW, I'm not a Steve Forbes in or out guy.
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Not trying to be combative - you honestly wouldn’t say that at this moment you’re pretty much #ForbesIn? Your posts would seem to indicate that position more so than neutrality.

And yes, we all agree he isn’t in reality actually going to be fired at the end of the season. But I don’t think that obviates the discussion of his job performance on a message board.
 
Think Steve Forbes is a solid coach. Would I rather have Shaka or Kelvin Sampson or a dozen other D1 coaches that WF could not hire right now? yes. None of that matters. Forbes has the full support of Currie, the big money donors and WF has guaranteed it will pay him through at least 2029; so, he's going to be WF coach for awhile.
 
Pilchard said:
For those that are convinced this all falls on Forbes, go with that. Just amazing how this board waffles on him after each game. GT has now beaten UNC, Duke, Clemson and WF; those results have nothing to do with the randomness of sports, but Damon Stoudamire outcoached his adversary in each of those games. Also, when WF won each of its 18 games, including beating Duke 10 days ago, that was just the awesomeness of the WF roster.
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So how do you think it's going with Forbes? Are you happy? Do your feelings ever vacillate based on context? When you watch games like last night, does it piss you off, or do you just marvel at witnessing such a mathematical anomaly?

You said, I believe (and I agree), that we have and have recently had adequate talent. Math, injuries, reffing, etc. affect all teams. So why are we so often unable to sustain good, consistent play or make effective counter-adjustments, if not the coach?
 
saus21 said:
Agree, think that our guys are wearing down a bit and the lack of depth has hurt especially with Monsanto not playing. Parker is good but needs to get stronger defensively. When you clock as many minutes as our starters then you are not going to be sharp every game. Really could use a strong big forward and a true point guard. Like Boopie but he is no Tyree. Would be feeling alot better if that travel call was called at the end (despite not playing well)
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to your point, WF is #336 in the nation and last in the ACC in bench minutes. (side note - UNC is #335). WF has been below the median ACC team each of the past 3 years in that stat.

My personal opinion is that Forbes tries to walk the tightrope between bench play and the metrics. Can’t play MMM or Canka/Clark because they hurt the metrics, but the consequence of those decisions is that those guys aren’t ready when needed due to injury. Knowing what he knows now, would Forbes have traded a bit of a KP efficiency loss early on for a better prepared MMM last night - and maybe a win?

Maybe Forbes will try harder to develop a deeper bench next year.
 
I don’t think playing a few minutes in games develops a bench, I think recruiting more playable scholarships does. Big swing and miss on Canka while the guy we were going to get is averaging 20 and 6 at Campbell. Seems like he could’ve given us 10 mins but we chose the wrong player.

Add that to Jao and Damari never being healthy and no freshmen gems like GT, Pitt, and Miami were able to grab under the radar. Those guys were just ready from the start, period.
 
I think the road game woes have entered into the heads of our players at home now. We are mind blown.
 
Forbes said tonight after watching a replay numerous times he doesn’t feel that Kelly traveled. He stated he lost control of the ball on the way down which allows him the right to recover the ball without a travel call.
I had a similar thought last night, but he also said in ideal situation instead of tying him up for the jump ball, they could have just let him sit there and try to score while sitting down. That is a bit unrealistic as players have the built in instinct to go and get the ball.
 
DeacLaw05 said:
You get what you will accept. Shit like this doesn’t happen in other places because their fan bases won’t allow it. But we’re little old Wake Forest—we’ll just sit there and take it, because we have to be patient. Meanwhile, it has now been 15 fucking YEARS and here we sit. I’m fucking beyond tired of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Not sure what year it was but I always got a kick out of an advertising sign on a local billboard that promoted Wake hoops a few years back. It was something like "March towards March". It was during the Buzz or Manning years. I always know when basketball is ready to end for me. It's usually on the ride home from work listening to the ACC tournament and Wake lose yet again. Nothing new.

People are longing to support the program and any kind of success in the postseason. A sweet 16, a tourney appearance, something. And yet here we are. The weather is starting to warm a bit, allergies are in full swing, and Wake hoops has yet again disapointed it's fanbase.
 
People like Canka And Clark will likely leave if pattern holds (similar to McCray and Taylor.)
Maybe Marsh and Keller too. Hard to understand both of these 2 getting lots of playing time earlier and now almost none. Seems they should be adequate to give rest spells for starters 2-3 minutes. And did Bradford go somewhere else too? Hard to build team continuity of play when guys don't stay together longer.

Just for perspective Wake has improved as a season progressed very few times in my lifetime. Tacy and Odom always found ways to beat UNC, NC State, and Duke when they were ranked but lose to a bottom feeder like Clemson in the first round of the ACC Tournament. Likewise, ranked WF teams bowing out to inferior teams like John Bagley's Boston College or getting Butlerized with Josh Howard on the team. Kentucky was a machine but we still got blownout in Charlotte with Rodney Rogers. All were early in the.the NCAA Tournament.

Tacy got us to the Sweet 16 with an upset over a very talented DePaul team, and without a Tim Duncan. I don't think we ever made it past game 2 after Tracy's feat, but I may be wrong.
 
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