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Miami's coaching search

I don't think that matters. Would State rather be where they are or where FSU is right now?
 
PhDeac said:
I don't think that matters. Would State rather be where they are or where FSU is right now?
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Right now, sure. But that's not what better program means. Who will have more success going forward? That's the question you have to be answering in order to determine which program is better.
 
ryala, I'll put it like this. 20 years ago, you would have said State and you would have been wrong. In the 90s, State got to the point where potential recruits barely remembered when State was an elite program. This offseason they pursued a coach who hadn't even turned 6 when they won the national championship. At some point, history becomes history and it has little impact on the future.
 
PhDeac said:
ryala, I'll put it like this. 20 years ago, you would have said State and you would have been wrong. In the 90s, State got to the point where potential recruits barely remembered when State was an elite program. This offseason they pursued a coach who hadn't even turned 6 when they won the national championship. At some point, history becomes history and it has little impact on the future.
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I'm not arguing State is some great program. Its not. It may not even be in the top half of jobs in the ACC...but I do think its better than FSU going forward. And I'm not basing my argument around an airball in 1983. They have a larger (if delusional) fan base and the school emphasizes basketball in a way that FSU never will.

I'll agree that history becomes irrelevant at a point... but why is FSU suddenly a top 4 program then? The last 3 years have been good, but those are irrelevant very very soon. And they really don't have much going for them past that. Bunny Colvin has been to 6 NCAAs in 23 years (all at major conference schools) so its not exactly like they have John Wooden patrolling the sidelines.
 
FSU is a top 4 program because the poor coaching around the league made their histories irrelevant.
 
PhDeac said:
FSU is a top 4 program because the poor coaching around the league made their histories irrelevant.
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Even if histories are completely irrelevant, there are many other schools with a much better claim because of their structural advantages. UMD will always have a bigger fan base, a larger media market and better recruiting territory. GT has the last 2. And there are a few others with similar claims including Wake.
 
PhDeac said:
ryala, I'll put it like this. 20 years ago, you would have said State and you would have been wrong. In the 90s, State got to the point where potential recruits barely remembered when State was an elite program. This offseason they pursued a coach who hadn't even turned 6 when they won the national championship. At some point, history becomes history and it has little impact on the future.
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When it comes to the relevance of history for the future, it's how you use and interpret the history that counts.
 
sailordeac said:
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When it comes to the relevance of history for the future, it's how you use and interpret the history that counts.
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True, but the usefulness of history disappears after a time.
 
sailordeac said:
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Not so. Even the history of classical antiquity can be useful, if properly understood and applied.
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Maybe. But that takes a lot of skill by guess what? A good coach.

And now we're back. I think a coach who could pull recruits using State's 1983 National Championship could pull recruits to Miami using South Beach.
 
I was speaking in general, and I think how history is, or can be, made useful varies from situation to situation. Indeed, in some situations the lack of much positive history can also be used effectively.
 
ryalaman said:
Even if histories are completely irrelevant, there are many other schools with a much better claim because of their structural advantages. UMD will always have a bigger fan base, a larger media market and better recruiting territory. GT has the last 2. And there are a few others with similar claims including Wake.
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You could say FSU has a "structural advantage" in being co-located with a mecca of young attractive black women. You could say the publicity their football team gets the school is an advantage, like for Ohio State or Texas. You could say the weather is advantage. Bottom line is either you get the job done or you don't.

Bottom line is that FSU has been to 3 straight NCAA tournaments and appears poised to make it 4 next year. They've done by recruiting great athletes that play outstanding defense.

Clemson's been to 4 straight NCAA tournaments and has what looks like a pretty solid coach.

One could easily make the case that both of those programs have more forward momentum than Maryland, GT, State or really anyone except UNC and Duke. Until proven otherwise, there's where they are.
 
LilburnDeac said:
So discounting history, where does Wake fit?
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In what respect? From a potential perspective we are 5th or 6th in the conference, but, like many other programs, we have chosen to let that potential go untapped by making a boneheaded coaching hire.
 
KanhojiAngre said:
You could say FSU has a "structural advantage" in being co-located with a mecca of young attractive black women. You could say the publicity their football team gets the school is an advantage, like for Ohio State or Texas. You could say the weather is advantage. Bottom line is either you get the job done or you don't.

Bottom line is that FSU has been to 3 straight NCAA tournaments and appears poised to make it 4 next year. They've done by recruiting great athletes that play outstanding defense.

Clemson's been to 4 straight NCAA tournaments and has what looks like a pretty solid coach.

One could easily make the case that both of those programs have more forward momentum than Maryland, GT, State or really anyone except UNC and Duke. Until proven otherwise, there's where they are.
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Those are fairly weak examples. The football team getting exposure isn't exactly as big of an advantage as the basketball team getting exposure. The advantages that the rest of the ACC has are much greater than what FSU has (which even excludes history... which is a faulty assumption. Wake obviously benefits from having sent HOFers to the league). Ohio State and Texas are different. They both print money by being the only show in town for a massive state. If anyone has that claim over Florida, its UF.

Yes, they've been to 3 straight tournaments. Yes theyve recruited well. But no, there's not much of a reason to believe that it continues for much longer. Singleton is leaving. If they miss the tournament without him are they suddenly no longer a top 4 program? They don't have the support of some of the other ACC programs, their coach is mediocre and their fan base isn't large. Program rankings are not as fluid as the top 25 polls.

Whats a better job right now, Indiana or Illinois. Indiana has been struggling and Illinois has had some success recently. By your criteria, the answer is Illinois. But I don't think you'll find a non-Illini alum who would rather have the Illinois job.
 
ryalaman said:
Those are fairly weak examples.

(snip foolishness)

Whats a better job right now, Indiana or Illinois. Indiana has been struggling and Illinois has had some success recently. By your criteria, the answer is Illinois. But I don't think you'll find a non-Illini alum who would rather have the Illinois job.
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You know what's weak?
2002–2003 Maryland 21–10 11–5 T–2nd NCAA Sweet 16
2003–2004 Maryland 20–12 7–9 T–6th NCAA 2nd Round
2004–2005 Maryland 19–13 7–9 T–6th NIT Semifinals
2005–2006 Maryland 19–13 8–8 6th NIT 1st Round
2006–2007 Maryland 25–9 10–6 T–3rd NCAA 2nd Round
2007–2008 Maryland 19–15 8–8 T–5th NIT 2nd Round
2008–2009 Maryland 21–14 7–9 T–7th NCAA 2nd Round
2009–2010 Maryland 24–9 13–3 T–1st NCAA 2nd Round
2010–2011 Maryland 19–14 7–9

I'm sorry, that's not just a year or two. That's two teams that were damn fortunate to even be in the tournament away from 2 berths in the last 8 years, with year 9 not looking promising.

You pick on FSU missing Singleton as if they weren't already without him this season (6-3, 2-0 in the NCAA tournament when he didn't play or played fewer than 20 minutes). Meanwhile, Maryland stands a good chance of losing Jordan Williams to go with their seniors. So you've Faust, Stoglin, Mosley and what? Better hope Howard and Paalson are ready for prime time I guess.

I'm sorry...Maryland blew their shot. They're just another program. No one is afraid of them. NC State has more than blown their shot. Wake...blew their shot a long time ago. Georgia Tech blew their shot. No one else has really had a shot lately. The most consistent programs of late other than Duke and UNC are FSU and Clemson and neither one looks to be getting markedly weaker next year.

As for what the better job is between Indiana and Illinois, it's really a question worth asking. Most of Indiana's rep was forged under possibly the best teacher of the game in history. It is entirely reasonable to think that the program will never in the near future be as good as it was under Knight. Illinois has a lot of fans and a lot of people in the state that follow the game, and a lot of kids that play in the state, and a larger population at large. Illinois's made the NCAA championship game, it's not like they've never seen success. If Illinois were to hire a great coach, I don't see what they couldn't accomplish that Indiana could.

However, Weber appears to have been living off Self's work for the early part of his tenure, and recently the program has been a marginal NCAA tournament one. Indiana hasn't made it there yet under Crean, but their recruiting suggests they may in the near future. Really a tough call right now.

If Crean were to flop and Weber were to get fired after another non-descript season, I suspect the biggest difference in the caliber of coach hired would be the amount each school pays.
 
Serious question, do you believe Maryland isn't the 3rd best program in the conference? Because if you really believe that someone else is the #3 program, then I'm done here because that's borderline crazy. I don't think you really understand what better program means.
 
There's a difference between program and potential. Most would agree that Maryland has the 3rd most potential in the conference, but part of being a good program is having good results. Maryland has not had good results for quite sometime thus they are not a good program.

The scary thing is that despite this they may still be the 3rd best program in the ACC.
 
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