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Most Bothersome Wake Forest Development in the last 12 months? Pit/Tunnels Adjace

We need to hire someone who can falsely politic our way up the rankings. We need Dunlop at Old Town
At the risk of potentially doxxing myself, I'll chime in here really quickly. For context, I am a current staff member at the University who grew up in a Wake family. My current position is one that will be directly impacted by the change in the USNWR ranking (you can assume of that what you will).

- These changes in the ranking metrics have been known for some time. It was unclear how far we would drop, but anyone who was following what was going on knew that this was coming to some degree. I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Wente's e-mail that went out to the community was pre-written except for the particular ranking.

- Most of Wake's problems about specific USNWR metrics stem from trying to compete at an academic level with schools that have endowments multiple times our size. In many ways, we're the Little Engine That Could of higher ed. No one is to blame here; it's a product of being a smaller school (smaller alumni donor base) with a dedicated niche calling for the first 75% of our existence (North Carolina Baptist education does not naturally generate outside funding interest). Neither our size nor our history are anything of which we should be ashamed. It feels slightly strange saying this, because we're still in the top 1% of higher education institutions out there in terms of resources; it's just that the schools that we view as our academic peer institutions tend to be in the top .1% or top .01%. If you want to discuss problems with Wake Forest as an entity, a solid 90% of our problems stem from this fundamental issue (including a great many of the points made in this thread already).

- Wake will likely see a reduction in incoming undergraduate applications, or perhaps a slowed rate at which the rate of incoming undergraduate applications will increase compared to previous years. There are a lot of high school students out there who default to these rankings when looking at college options. For better or worse, these rankings are considered shorthand for academic prestige in lay-person circles.

- Semi-related, teenagers will remain teenagers. Teenagers sometimes act impulsively. It happens.

- One would hope that most professional administrators know that these rankings are highly flawed, and that kneejerk reactions are not necessary. The rankings were highly flawed in previous years, but we didn't care because they tended to be overly kind to schools like Wake. These changes put in place by USNWR are entirely arbitrary, and the previous metrics that had been put in place by USNWR were also entirely arbitrary, even when they favored us.

- I do not think Wake is one of the 30 best overall academic institutions in the country.

- I think Wake might very well be one of the 30 best academic institutions in the country for undergraduate education specifically.

- Wake is still the exact same school that it was on Saturday. The Chapel hasn't fallen down or anything. The quality of undergraduate education will remain high. Men's soccer will still lose to Stanford when it matters most (but maybe they won't this time?).

- The only people truly affected negatively are people who try to use Wake's reputation and their relationship to the school as a substitute for any sort of genuine personal accomplishments or discernible personality when bragging to friends. Unfortunately, this likely includes a fair few of the power-brokers in Wake's decision-making leadership (and potentially a fair few posters in this thread as well).




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This is very reflective of the Wake Forest way here. And the likes reflect it. I understand your opinion and respect it; I just disagree with it.

To summarize:

We know we are not one of the USA's top 30 schools; and we are not going to try to be.

If you want to use your diploma to improve your reputation and make money from it; we are not the school for you. You ought to win on your own in life with no help from the reputation of a top University.


Remind me why folks shouldn't just go to High Point or UNCG?
 
At the risk of potentially doxxing myself, I'll chime in here really quickly. For context, I am a current staff member at the University who grew up in a Wake family. My current position is one that will be directly impacted by the change in the USNWR ranking (you can assume of that what you will).

- These changes in the ranking metrics have been known for some time. It was unclear how far we would drop, but anyone who was following what was going on knew that this was coming to some degree. I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Wente's e-mail that went out to the community was pre-written except for the particular ranking.

- Most of Wake's problems about specific USNWR metrics stem from trying to compete at an academic level with schools that have endowments multiple times our size. In many ways, we're the Little Engine That Could of higher ed. No one is to blame here; it's a product of being a smaller school (smaller alumni donor base) with a dedicated niche calling for the first 75% of our existence (North Carolina Baptist education does not naturally generate outside funding interest). Neither our size nor our history are anything of which we should be ashamed. It feels slightly strange saying this, because we're still in the top 1% of higher education institutions out there in terms of resources; it's just that the schools that we view as our academic peer institutions tend to be in the top .1% or top .01%. If you want to discuss problems with Wake Forest as an entity, a solid 90% of our problems stem from this fundamental issue (including a great many of the points made in this thread already).

- Wake will likely see a reduction in incoming undergraduate applications, or perhaps a slowed rate at which the rate of incoming undergraduate applications will increase compared to previous years. There are a lot of high school students out there who default to these rankings when looking at college options. For better or worse, these rankings are considered shorthand for academic prestige in lay-person circles.

- Semi-related, teenagers will remain teenagers. Teenagers sometimes act impulsively. It happens.

- One would hope that most professional administrators know that these rankings are highly flawed, and that kneejerk reactions are not necessary. The rankings were highly flawed in previous years, but we didn't care because they tended to be overly kind to schools like Wake. These changes put in place by USNWR are entirely arbitrary, and the previous metrics that had been put in place by USNWR were also entirely arbitrary, even when they favored us.

- I do not think Wake is one of the 30 best overall academic institutions in the country.

- I think Wake might very well be one of the 30 best academic institutions in the country for undergraduate education specifically.

- Wake is still the exact same school that it was on Saturday. The Chapel hasn't fallen down or anything. The quality of undergraduate education will remain high. Men's soccer will still lose to Stanford when it matters most (but maybe they won't this time?).

- The only people truly affected negatively are people who try to use Wake's reputation and their relationship to the school as a substitute for any sort of genuine personal accomplishments or discernible personality when bragging to friends. Unfortunately, this likely includes a fair few of the power-brokers in Wake's decision-making leadership (and potentially a fair few posters in this thread as well).




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Seems like he "plight" of Wake's academic standing is similar to that of ACC athletics: we're still miles ahead of most institutions/conferences in terms of reputation and resources, but if you're not at the Duke/Stanford, SEC/B10 level and trending further behind, the end game appears to either move up to their level or decline to irrelevancy. Not much middle ground in either situation.
 
We need to hire someone who can falsely politic our way up the rankings. We need Dunlop at Old Town

This is very reflective of the Wake Forest way here. And the likes reflect it. I understand your opinion and respect it; I just disagree with it.

To summarize:

We know we are not one of the USA's top 30 schools; and we are not going to try to be.

If you want to use your diploma to improve your reputation and make money from it; we are not the school for you. You ought to win on your own in life with no help from the reputation of a top University.


Remind me why folks shouldn't just go to High Point or UNCG?

When my Wake roommate flunked out I believe that he did go to High Point, so there's that.
 
It seems like we would get 10 bonus points for having actual student-athletes, as our football players, for example, go to class, learn and are articulate, upstanding members of the community. They will all get good jobs, regardless of how far they go in FB. USUALLY. NOT ALWAYS. BUT USUALLY.

Basketball is a different story with Europe and Asia pro options, but those kids also seem to be good members of whatever society/community and then retire from hoops to good jobs and lives. We are not the same as UNC in that regard, as an example with their bogus classes, or Duke taking their classes at NC Central or wherever.
 
So what would happen if Wake asked USNWR to put them back into the small liberal arts category?

It's LOL bad that we are now on par with Florida State (and well behind Florida). Yes, I realize both Florida schools are benefiting from a population boom in their states, which in turn results in a more selective application process. It's the same thing that has been going on in Texas.
 
So what would happen if Wake asked USNWR to put them back into the small liberal arts category?

It's LOL bad that we are now on par with Florida State (and well behind Florida). Yes, I realize both Florida schools are benefiting from a population boom in their states, which in turn results in a more selective application process. It's the same thing that has been going on in Texas.

Wake would be #1!
 
Years ago, we were ranked by USNWR in the Regional university category and I believe we were #1 every year. At least we were for the Southern region. Ahead of schools like App, Mercer etc. I knew it would be difficult to compete in the national university category at our size but the criteria favored us for many years and we were top 30. It would be bad form to now argue for a smaller category.
 
Years ago, we were ranked by USNWR in the Regional university category and I believe we were #1 every year. At least we were for the Southern region. Ahead of schools like App, Mercer etc. I knew it would be difficult to compete in the national university category at our size but the criteria favored us for many years and we were top 30. It would be bad form to now argue for a smaller category.
Who cares about whether it is "bad form"

The top students in the country are no longer looking at Wake Forest to know whether the form is bad or not. If we try to get in a different category and not pretend to be a national university, instead a small liberal arts college---which is what we are--maybe we get some students like so many of you who are attracted to that.
 
Brings back memories of board villain Randy Casstevens.



You may be interested in what I do for a living.
Randy wasn't the only one, unfortunately. Wake had multiple bad money managers who contributed to the current size of Wake's endowment.
 
As I've posted before, my background is finance/business and I'm a semi-retired former CFO. So, I have ZERO academia experience.

However, it appears Wake has painted itself into a bad corner with this latest ranking. They're asking $80K/year in tuition (retail price) and I would think some of this was justified because of a relatively high national ranking. Still too pricey IMHO but it's the going rate for many private schools.

Now, given this news, I don't see how you demand that kind of tuition when ranked well behind-higher ranked schools at a third of the sticker price.

I'll defer to the academics on here but those two seem very incompatible to me.
 
Years ago, we were ranked by USNWR in the Regional university category and I believe we were #1 every year. At least we were for the Southern region. Ahead of schools like App, Mercer etc. I knew it would be difficult to compete in the national university category at our size but the criteria favored us for many years and we were top 30. It would be bad form to now argue for a smaller category.

I don't think it would be bad form when the new criteria provide an advantage for larger universities. I've never really bought that UNC provides a better undergrad education than WF, but it's a quality school (and is now ranked ahead of UVA, which is a joke). Same with schools like Michigan and UCLA. But we now sit behind a whole host of UC schools, USC, Florida, UT, Illinois, Wisconsin, Rutgers, UW, THE Ohio State University, Purdue, Maryland. We are tied with Texas A&M, Virginia Tech, and UGA. We are a slot ahead of FSU, and a few ahead of UConn, Minnesota, NCSU, and Penn State.
 
As I've posted before, my background is finance/business and I'm a semi-retired former CFO. So, I have ZERO academia experience.

However, it appears Wake has painted itself into a bad corner with this latest ranking. They're asking $80K/year in tuition (retail price) and I would think some of this was justified because of a relatively high national ranking. Still too pricey IMHO but it's the going rate for many private schools.

Now, given this news, I don't see how you demand that kind of tuition when ranked well behind-higher ranked schools at a third of the sticker price.

I'll defer to the academics on here but those two seem very incompatible to me.
have you looked at what private school tuition is like at schools ranked below us
 
1. I don’t really understand why USNWR is the arbiter of anything; it’s a defunct magazine that no one reads.

2. This isn’t like AP rankings of a football team, which evolve over the course of a season. The school is what the school is. When they changed ranking criteria, you’d expect us to move, but otherwise you don’t. There was always this “push” to get in the top 30 that didn’t make sense to me….we weren’t in the top 30, so the only way to get there was to game the system or to hope a few other schools suddenly burned down or did something really stupid.

3. I chose Wake because I loved the campus and the people and the education that I thought I’d get. It had nothing to do with being a millionaire or a basketball jocksniffer.
 
As I've posted before, my background is finance/business and I'm a semi-retired former CFO. So, I have ZERO academia experience.

However, it appears Wake has painted itself into a bad corner with this latest ranking. They're asking $80K/year in tuition (retail price) and I would think some of this was justified because of a relatively high national ranking. Still too pricey IMHO but it's the going rate for many private schools.

Now, given this news, I don't see how you demand that kind of tuition when ranked well behind-higher ranked schools at a third of the sticker price.

I'll defer to the academics on here but those two seem very incompatible to me.
As a recent “shopper” for tuition, private schools vs out of state public schools are fairly comparable.

And no one, other than the international students, pay full price for any private schools. It’s like a hospital bill vs what you pay.
 
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