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Official 2020-21 NBA Finals - Milwaukee Bucks win the NBA Championship!

JManslow said:
LOL, just trying to stomp out the rampant homerism here. Duncan is an all time great. Paul is a top 100 player of all-time. Nothing to hang your head about.
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what

cp3 is somewhere in the top 5 PGs of all time
 
JMan definitely picks his spots to be a UNC troll.
 
freakadeac said:
It would be pretty cool if the #1 PF (Duncan) and #2 PG (Paul) of all time went to Wake

Nobody argues with Duncan, I think CP would have solidified #2 behind Magic with a championship and FMVP

With no championships if you say CP is #2 you get laughed out of the room, well maybe not on the Wake board, I have him #3 behind Isiah
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It sounds like you need to convince yourself, man. LOL

CP3 breaks dudes' brains for some reason. There is plenty of statistical evidence that makes a reasonable case for CP being the best player to play the position. Rings puts him at a clear #2 because Magic's run is probably gonna be unparalleled, but #3 behind Isiah? Come on, man. I mean, come on. LOL. I guess you can eye test or nostalgia trap that shit (or claim some kinda cultural resonance), but the numbers aren't even close.
 
Strickland33 said:
It sounds like you need to convince yourself, man. LOL

CP3 breaks dudes' brains for some reason. There is plenty of statistical evidence that makes a reasonable case for CP being the best player to play the position. Rings puts him at a clear #2 because Magic's run is probably gonna be unparalleled, but #3 behind Isiah? Come on, man. I mean, come on. LOL. I guess you can eye test or nostalgia trap that shit (or claim some kinda cultural resonance), but the numbers aren't even close.
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CP3 Isiah is a great debate, you are right CP3 has better numbers but 2>0, if CP3 gets a title (as FMVP or at least as a top dude, not like Kidd 2011) then the 1 title plus his better numbers gets him ahead of Isiah for me

like buckets said it's easier to say CP3 is top 5 all time
 
buckets said:
what

cp3 is somewhere in the top 5 PGs of all time
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1. Magic
2. Steph
3. Oscar
4. Isiah
5. Frazier
6. Stockton
7. Kidd
8. Paul
9. Glove
10. Nash

I could see an argument for putting him at 5 but he’s not in the top 4
 
freakadeac said:
CP3 Isiah is a great debate, you are right CP3 has better numbers but 2>0, if CP3 gets a title (as FMVP or at least as a top dude, not like Kidd 2011) then the 1 title plus his better numbers gets him ahead of Isiah for me

like buckets said it's easier to say CP3 is top 5 all time
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I'm sorry for being a jerk, i think i mighta mixed you up with the Tarhole cuz your avatars have similar color schemes and feature some of my favorite images on this great green earth

I think I really only have one rebuttal and that's a pretty unpopular opinion I've been cultivating over the past few years:

Nostalgia-vision and hindsight kinda obscure the fact that competition was far weaker in the 80s and 90s than it is now. The marquee matchups were utterly elite and the talent on the top squads was among the greatest to ever bounce basketballs, but it's hard to imagine a team from the 80s and 90s running the table now to the extent that they did for generations back then. There's just too much talent, which combined with NBA players emerging on every continent, increased player autonomy, and higher salary caps really has leveled the playing field in a spectacular way that I think we take for granted.

In fact, the only teams in the post-Banana Boat era to win back-to-back championships are teams that were so innovative in terms of roster composition that it took other teams time to adapt. The Heat were one of the most brutal super-team combos of all time, an almost completely artificial roster restructuring via creative poaching. The Warriors literally had four max-level stars, a bizarre twist of salary cap luck and front office wizardry. I really think that a lot of squads from the 80s and 90s would probably look a lot like Rick Carlisle's Mavs or Terry Stotts's Blazers in the contemporary NBA. If I had to guess, then we'll never see a three-peat in the NBA again, let alone sustained runs of dominance like the Lakers and Celtics in the 80s and Bulls and Pistons in the 90s.

I'm a dork so sometimes I like going on Basketball Reference and comparing players adjusted for pace or per 100 possessions, and it's kind of remarkable at how elite any contemporary all-star looks by comparison. Some of that is three point shooting (and people talk about hand checking, but every generation of basketball has its supposedly limiting officiating quality), but you can eye test adjust for that. the reality is that the caliber of talent, of offensive efficiency, of coaching talent, etc. is just incredible right now.

There's a generation of guys I'll never be able to watch because of tech constraints - Young Kareem, Baylor, Chamberlain, Cousy, Havlicek, Maravich, Petit, Robertson, Russell, Unseld, etc. - but man I can't imagine that the quality of competition was even remotely close to what it is now. Whenever I watch games from the 80s and 90s on Classic, I just imagine what Jordan would do against a team like Milwaukee that can throw four guys over 6'9 on him, just one after another after another (or just bottle up Scottie like the Bucks did with CP/Book on a given night), or how any team could deal with a three-headed monster with bench depth like the Nets, etc. etc.

Anyway, I hope this generates some conversation at the very least, but I felt like I owed you an explanation after being a jerk.
 
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Times change. 30 years ago, Jordan won his first championship. 30 years before that the Celtics won their fourth with Bill Russell and Bob Cousy.

There’s obviously more talent now than in the 80s and 90s for the reasons you mentioned. But the game has changed dramatically as well. Giannis wouldn’t be the same player today 30 years ago posting up against Ewing and Hakeem. But you could argue if David Robinson played today, his game would be more like Giannis’.

Talent is talent. The top players in the 90s playing today would have evolved games. Bigs like Ewing and Hakeem who had reliable elbow jumpers would have 3 point range. A lot of goons from that era would have corner three like PJ Tucker.
 
1. Booker is/was the best player on Suns this year and it wasn’t close. It is blatant homerism to say otherwise

2. CP3 carried NO. The Clips and Rockets teams he was on underperformed. We’re they worldbeaters? No. But those teams were pretty good and folded in playoffs. And CP3 is part of that. He is first player in NBA history to blow 4 2-0 series leads

3. Strick is right about Doc. 100%

4. CP3 will go down as a top 5-10 PG of all time. Id probably put him at 4/5 even without the ring. But the ring would have cemented him in top 3-5.
 
Question: would you rather have Durant's 2 rings or Giannis one ring? Ff both stopped there. For me, Giannis' ring all day long. That GS team is exactly what Strick said above and to me it was a ridiculously stacked super team. KD forced his way to get his easy rings. Middleton wouldn't even have started for that team and probably wouldn't have played much. Jru, same thing. This was just a team led by a great player that kicked ass. And I agree with those who said they wouldnt even pull for CP3 to get a ring with the Lakers at this point. Cheap way to get a ring. If Karl Malone was getting towards the end of his best years and didnt have a ring yet, in today's environment he would damn sure get one by forming a super team. Same with Barkley. Hell, both would have probably joined the Bulls for a year or two. Its BS and a cheap way to get a ring.
 
guitardeac said:
Question: would you rather have Durant's 2 rings or Giannis one ring? Ff both stopped there. For me, Giannis' ring all day long. That GS team is exactly what Strick said above and to me it was a ridiculously stacked super team. KD forced his way to get his easy rings. Middleton wouldn't even have started for that team and probably wouldn't have played much. Jru, same thing. This was just a team led by a great player that kicked ass. And I agree with those who said they wouldnt even pull for CP3 to get a ring with the Lakers at this point. Cheap way to get a ring. If Karl Malone was getting towards the end of his best years and didnt have a ring yet, in today's environment he would damn sure get one by forming a super team. Same with Barkley. Hell, both would have probably joined the Bulls for a year or two. Its BS and a cheap way to get a ring.
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Karl Malone did in fact join the Lakers for his last year.
 
I agree that the top 3 are Magic, Steph and Oscar, but after that, it gets muddy. Isaiah was great but polarizing and hated, and that team would never have won titles in a differently officiated era. And before this year, CP3 really never played on really strong teams. The Clips were great for highlights but were otherwise offensively limited. All Jordan could do was dunk, and they weren't a great outside shooting team. I'd probably put CP3 in that 5-6 range up there around Stockton.
 
guitardeac said:
Question: would you rather have Durant's 2 rings or Giannis one ring? Ff both stopped there. For me, Giannis' ring all day long. That GS team is exactly what Strick said above and to me it was a ridiculously stacked super team. KD forced his way to get his easy rings. Middleton wouldn't even have started for that team and probably wouldn't have played much. Jru, same thing. This was just a team led by a great player that kicked ass. And I agree with those who said they wouldnt even pull for CP3 to get a ring with the Lakers at this point. Cheap way to get a ring. If Karl Malone was getting towards the end of his best years and didnt have a ring yet, in today's environment he would damn sure get one by forming a super team. Same with Barkley. Hell, both would have probably joined the Bulls for a year or two. Its BS and a cheap way to get a ring.
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Hell, I'd take Giannis' 1 over Lebron's 4. He did it the way it should be done. He stuck with the team that drafted him and built up the guys around him.

He managed to piss on the superteams and the Process at the same time, it is fantastic.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Hell, I'd take Giannis' 1 over Lebron's 4. He did it the way it should be done. He stuck with the team that drafted him and built up the guys around him.
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Kind of agree, but LeBron's title in Cleveland was legit. Yes, he had Kyrie (he did miss almost half that season), the Cavs didn't have much. JR Smith was the Cav's 3rd leading scorer, and Cleveland did beat a super-team to win that title. That said, if titles are considered the key factor in determining greatness (which is flawed IMO), how you got the title has to be part of that analysis. Jordan's and Tim's home grown titles are far more impressive than KD's or LeBron's super-team titles.

An example in another sport is Peyton's 2nd super-bowl with the Broncos. That Broncos team won the Super Bowl in spite of him of Peyton, not because of him. At least half of the starting QBs in the NFL that season would've won a super bowl with that Broncos team.
 
i mean cp3 taking the suns from missing the playoffs to the nba finals has to count for something
 
Rumored trade:

Westbrook to the Lakers
Kuzma, Schroeder and Horton-Tucker to the Wiz
 
buckets said:
i mean cp3 taking the suns from missing the playoffs to the nba finals has to count for something
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after doing the same thing with OKC the year before (well not exactly, but from worst to 5th), no less !!

his resume outside of formal nba play is nuts, too

anchored the redeem team (won 2 gold medals?), led the union into an era of player empowerment (not to mention helped implement the bubble), and has been one of the most silently outspoken NBA players in terms of being a champion of women's basketball players and infrastructure, and a cultural and material booster for HBCU institutions.

CP3 makes me proud to be from Winston-Salem, let alone to be a fan of our DEACS.
 
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