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Official Russian Election Interference Thread

Deacsfan27 said:
I'm guessing you are trolling...but I will respond anyway.

You think Robert Mueller, a former US Deputy Attorney General under Bush, a Princeton graduate, a Marine Corps veteran, a former Director of the FBI under both a Republican and a Democratic President, and head of a Special Counsel Investigation looking into Russian Interference in the '16 elections is leading a partisan witch hunt solely to get Donald Trump removed from the Presidency?

Not just that, but there is an agency wide conspiracy by the FBI, one of the most thoroughly vetted agencies and jobs in the world, to basically overthrow the President of the USA, when that would effectively amount to treason if found out. Not to mention nearly 1/3 of all FBI agents and field officers were in the military at some point and have defended the country both domestically and worldwide.

You think this is more likely than Donald Trump actually doing something that has caused this Counsel to be convened and carried out as it has been?

I just want to make sure I understand what you are picking here and where you are coming from.
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Yes, although it doesn't have to be Partisan. He might just think he's an idiot and think removing him from office is best for the country/world.
 
palmab03 said:
Yes, although it doesn't have to be Partisan. He might just think he's an idiot and think removing him from office is best for the country/world.
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Alright, so you either think that there is this conspiracy theory against Trump to get him removed because of a partisan witch hunt (where Trump did nothing wrong), OR you think that Trump has proven himself to be so inept and such a threat to the United States that the body sworn to protect the United States and its interests have put together a plan to get him removed, despite knowing that if found out they would without a doubt be removed from their jobs and face likely prison time?

What does that say about Trump either way?

You're really wedging yourself between a rock and a hard place here.

I just believe the simplest explanation which is Option B that I listed above. Trump and his folks did some stupid shit, they got called on their stupid shit, they lied about doing aforementioned stupid shit, and when Mueller was appointed to head this task force he has found even more stupid shit. I don't see how that is possibly not the most rational way to assess what is going on here.
 
sailordeac said:
rather than respond to blanket statements about "everyone," I will give my opinion on each specific case, if you present it and ask for it

provide the case and the details and I'll respond
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Ok, let's start with Flynn. Oh yeah you've already decided he looks dumb, so case closed, charges dismissed. Let's move on to Sessions "revising" his congressional testimony after the media found out he mistruthed his testimony. Sessions isn't very smart looking either, but let's try to get some substance in this line of excuses. The attorney general nominee and someone who was a senator for nearly 30 years should know better than to mistruth while under oath at a senate hearing.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
Alright, so you either think that there is this conspiracy theory against Trump to get him removed because of a partisan witch hunt (where Trump did nothing wrong), OR you think that Trump has proven himself to be so inept and such a threat to the United States that the body sworn to protect the United States and its interests have put together a plan to get him removed, despite knowing that if found out they would without a doubt be removed from their jobs and face likely prison time?

What does that say about Trump either way?

You're really wedging yourself between a rock and a hard place here.

I just believe the simplest explanation which is Option B that I listed above. Trump and his folks did some stupid shit, they got called on their stupid shit, they lied about doing aforementioned stupid shit, and when Mueller was appointed to head this task force he has found even more stupid shit. I don't see how that is possibly not the most rational way to assess what is going on here.
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We believe different things. Its clear Russians tried to make contact. Its also clear someone in the room generally rebuffed making any major contact.
 
palmab03 said:
We believe different things. Its clear Russians tried to make contact. Its also clear someone in the room generally rebuffed making any major contact.
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Why do you believe that "it's clear". Most of what I have seen (e-mails, phone calls, etc.) have shown that the Trump campaign was completely open to any and everything that Russia could offer them to help win the election.

It's fine that you believe something different, but from where I stand I think you believe this when nearly all the evidence points to the exact opposite of what you claim.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
So at this point we have three possibilities of what's going on:

A. Trump actively knew what he was doing and knew that he would need help from Russia to win the election, so he told everybody around him to get as much info as possible to work with Russia to help out and perhaps strengthen relationships between himself and Putin once he got in office. This means everybody he hired (Manafort, Flynn, etc.) was done so in an attempt to use their leverage to better his situation.

B. Trump and his cronies got offered something from Russia, they said "sure, why not, let's go get it", didn't realize the severity of what they were doing, and are now lying about it to cover their tracks even though the FBI would never ask you about this stuff unless they already knew you did it, which is further incriminating them all because they are dumb and lying to federal agents. Trump had no idea about Manafort because he didn't properly vet him because he's an idiot, and just got caught up in this because he is an idiot surrounded by idiots.

C. This is all made up and a partisan witch hunt led by the FBI and Robert Mueller to try to get Trump out of office.

Which one is the most likely?

Also, since Trump is President of the United States I would say there is a pretty big issue if you believe A or B because he is either working with Russia intimately, or he is just really fucking stupid and doesn't know anything about politics.
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There is at least one more: These guys believed that Hillary and Obama had gotten away with egregious corruption for 8 years or more and they figured they could get away with it too. But it turns out that Clinton et al. were either much better at government corruption and covering their tracks after decades of government employment, or Clinton et al. had been investigated dozens of times by a Republican Congress and an independent FBI and found innocent but Trump and his cronies just didn't believe it.
 
palmab03 said:
We believe different things. Its clear Russians tried to make contact. Its also clear someone in the room generally rebuffed making any major contact.
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"If it's what you say it is, I love it" (or something like that).
 
birdman said:
There is at least one more: These guys believed that Hillary and Obama had gotten away with egregious corruption for 8 years or more and they figured they could get away with it too. But it turns out that Clinton et al. were either much better at government corruption and covering their tracks after decades of government employment, or Clinton et al. had been investigated dozens of times by a Republican Congress and an independent FBI and found innocent but Trump and his cronies just didn't believe it.
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Yeah--I would say that falls slightly into Option A or B. They knew that EVERYBODY ELSE DOES IT SO WE WILL DO IT TOO. Except they were too fucking stupid to get away with it.
 
Should Will Bailey be thrown in jail for receiving a fax about Governor Baker's wife's medical condition?
 
Deacsfan27 said:
Yeah--I would say that falls slightly into Option A or B. They knew that EVERYBODY ELSE DOES IT SO WE WILL DO IT TOO. Except they were too fucking stupid to get away with it.
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It's also possible, I supposed, that Putin did all of this intentionally and left so many trails and so much evidence hoping to frame Trump. Or, at least sowing so much doubt in the electorate regarding the integrity of our electoral process and our political parties that it would create chaos in our democracy. Putin wins all around when Americans hate the Democrats for rigging the primary and hate the Republicans for nominating Trump and maybe colluding with the Russians to steal the election. That would be some 4d chess by Putin, but he has and will have zero consequences; America in impotent right now.
 
palmab03 said:
Should Will Bailey be thrown in jail for receiving a fax about Governor Baker's wife's medical condition?
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These guys should have gone straight to the FBI as soon as the Russians/Wikileaks reach out to them. Instead, they, at best, toyed with the idea of engaging with the perpetrators and then lied about to the FBI, when the FBI was initially conducting a counter intelligence investigation. BTW, every one seems to forget that this started out a counter intelligence investigation to try and understand what the Russians did in the 2016 election to prevent it from happening again... But, Trump's team kept lying about everything so the FBI started investigating crimes.
 
Option D.

A Russian intelligence operation with multiple goals both large and small found a willing partner in a not terribly bright ethically and morally bankrupt candidate willing to do anything to win. The candidate had surrounded himself with not terribly bright and ethically bankrupt people who accepted what help they could from the Russians and their cut out Wikileaks. In exchange for that help, Trump at minimum weakened the Republican platform on Ukraine, secretly agreed to end US sanctions on Russia and likely had several businesses deals worked out with the Russians to personally enrich members of the campaign. The Trump campaign became more and more comprised as the campaign went on providing Russia with leverage to blackmail Trump and his associates for further policy concessions.
 
riscdeac said:
Karllllllllll,

I don’t know exactly what a president must to legally with his business entities. I’m assuming whatever was required had to be in place for him to take the oath of office.

Any other presidents like the bushes have business interest? What did they do?

Would John Kerry have been allowed to give out those little Heinz packets you get at mcDonalds?

Frankly, there had to be influence with H******’s foundation and the money pouring in while she was sec of state. Come on now. You can’t believe all of that was pure. It’s obvious. Maybe all legal but I’m sure favors were done. I’m sure there was influence and even donations for future promises as president. You guys just don’t want to believe that.
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Everybody believes this. It is common practice to appoint very helpful donors as ambassadors to foreign nations. President Obama did a lot of this.

It is thoroughly debatable whether or not Trump has complied with what is required regarding giving up his business to become President. You cannot have any ties with it at all.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
Which of those words you use to describe politicos not apply to donald trump? Perhaps the only differences between trump and the swamp donkeys in Washington is that he's rich and couldn't pass a HS Civics test.
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Allegedly rich
 
riscdeac said:
Karllllllllll,

I don’t know exactly what a president must to legally with his business entities. I’m assuming whatever was required had to be in place for him to take the oath of office.

Any other presidents like the bushes have business interest? What did they do?

Would John Kerry have been allowed to give out those little Heinz packets you get at mcDonalds?

Frankly, there had to be influence with H******’s foundation and the money pouring in while she was sec of state. Come on now. You can’t believe all of that was pure. It’s obvious. Maybe all legal but I’m sure favors were done. I’m sure there was influence and even donations for future promises as president. You guys just don’t want to believe that.
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This is a pretty big assumption. Trump's treatment of his private businesses was very unconventional and potentially illegal, but the laws are unspecific because the 44 previous Presidents took extra care not to have conflicting business and public interests. The legality depends on how you interpret the emoluments clause in the Constitution.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
Everybody believes this. It is common practice to appoint very helpful donors as ambassadors to foreign nations. President Obama did a lot of this.

It is thoroughly debatable whether or not Trump has complied with what is required regarding giving up his business to become President. You cannot have any ties with it at all.
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Well, Trump has appointed very few ambassadors, so he is probably clean all around.
 
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