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Ongoing NC GOP debacle thread

Is the point of representative government for representatives to only represent their voters? No, that's not the point at all. Maybe you missed the "at the expense of children with uninvolved parents" part. Should I have made the text bigger on that part?

Your opinion on this might become a bit more nuanced once you actually have school age children.
 
Your opinion on this might become a bit more nuanced once you actually have school age children.

"Fuck other people's kids" is not a reasonable response to having kids.
 
actually the point of representatives is to represent their voters, either by directly translating the wishes of the constituency as closely as possible or by making a judgement that best fits their needs.
 
"Fuck other people's kids" is not a reasonable response to having kids.

Distilling every idea a parent might have about where education funding goes down to "fuck other people's kids" is not a reasonable response either.

Put another way, looking out for the interests of your own kids is not the same as thinking "fuck other people's kids."
 
Distilling every idea a parent might have about where education funding goes down to "fuck other people's kids" is not a reasonable response either.

Put another way, looking out for the interests of your own kids is not the same as thinking "fuck other people's kids."

It is in the zero-sum world of today's liberal class warfare ideology.
 
Meh. It's one thing to look out for your own kid's best interests. I do that out of my own pocket with one kid at private school, and by being an active and involved parent with my other kid in public school. It's another thing to advocate for government policies that impact kids statewide, such that kids like mine are benefited and kids not like mine are hurt.
 
Exactly, 923.
 
Meh. It's one thing to look out for your own kid's best interests. I do that out of my own pocket with one kid at private school, and by being an active and involved parent with my other kid in public school. It's another thing to advocate for government policies that impact kids statewide, such that kids like mine are benefited and kids not like mine are hurt.

That's a pretty big assumption that the kids in the charter schools, to whom the money was originally allocated by the feds and whom it would follow under this proposed legislation, are like yours. Obviously #anecdotes, but the charter school my kid goes to is vast majority African American, and has no bussing and no lunch programs, though they desperately want both. Why? Because the money allocated to those kids is taken by CMS and doesn't follow the child.

The other charter school near me took out loans to buy busses so that it could get the kids from the poorer areas to school. Which makes no sense when there is federal money allotted for those kids to get bussed, but CMS won't let it go. In my opinion, CMS had its chance to be the prime educator of those kids, and failed miserably. They should not get a voice at the table for any money associated with those kids, they lost their chance.

To your earlier point about some schools not using the funds for bussing or lunch, isn't that one of your usual primary points - to get admin out of the way and let the teachers decide what is best for their particular school regardless of universal regulations? That is what is going on in those situation - if a school determines that some funds would be more beneficial if spent elsewhere, why should it be hindered? Why would it be mandated that it be wasted on something to the extent the school doesn't need it? If the kid needs a bus, and the charter school doesn't provide a bus, then the kid isn't going to that charter school if he can't get there, so the charter school isn't getting that funding in the first place; you're arguing against a scenario that solves itself. But if a charter school gets enough bus funding to economically provide the necessary bussing with some left over, why shouldn't the school get to maximize its dollars and its own efficiency by putting the excess funding towards something else it needs?
 
That's a pretty big assumption that the kids in the charter schools, to whom the money was originally allocated by the feds and whom it would follow under this proposed legislation, are like yours. Obviously #anecdotes, but the charter school my kid goes to is vast majority African American, and has no bussing and no lunch programs, though they desperately want both. Why? Because the money allocated to those kids is taken by CMS and doesn't follow the child.

The other charter school near me took out loans to buy busses so that it could get the kids from the poorer areas to school. Which makes no sense when there is federal money allotted for those kids to get bussed, but CMS won't let it go. In my opinion, CMS had its chance to be the prime educator of those kids, and failed miserably. They should not get a voice at the table for any money associated with those kids, they lost their chance.

To your earlier point about some schools not using the funds for bussing or lunch, isn't that one of your usual primary points - to get admin out of the way and let the teachers decide what is best for their particular school regardless of universal regulations? That is what is going on in those situation - if a school determines that some funds would be more beneficial if spent elsewhere, why should it be hindered? Why would it be mandated that it be wasted on something to the extent the school doesn't need it? If the kid needs a bus, and the charter school doesn't provide a bus, then the kid isn't going to that charter school if he can't get there, so the charter school isn't getting that funding in the first place; you're arguing against a scenario that solves itself. But if a charter school gets enough bus funding to economically provide the necessary bussing with some left over, why shouldn't the school get to maximize its dollars and its own efficiency by putting the excess funding towards something else it needs?

I am not entirely sure what you are saying. If you are saying that charter schools should get bus money IF they provide bussing, and can keep the excess if they do it more economically than non-charter schools, I have no problem with that. As already stated. What I have a problem with is charter schools getting bus money or lunch money and not providing buses or food at all, because "our kids don't need it" - well no shit, that establishes a no-bussing, no food policy that bars an entire population of poor, mostly brown kids from accessing the school.
 
Your opinion on this might become a bit more nuanced once you actually have school age children.
Condescending bullshit, and dismissive of all the parents who disagree with you. It's possible that I care about all school age children, and not just yours.
 
I am not entirely sure what you are saying. If you are saying that charter schools should get bus money IF they provide bussing, and can keep the excess if they do it more economically than non-charter schools, I have no problem with that. As already stated. What I have a problem with is charter schools getting bus money or lunch money and not providing buses or food at all, because "our kids don't need it" - well no shit, that establishes a no-bussing, no food policy that bars an entire population of poor, mostly brown kids from accessing the school.

I'm saying that the bolded is not a material concern because it can't really happen. The federal money being debated is assigned to the kid in the bussing zone. If the charter school is not providing bussing to that kid's zone, then that kid wouldn't go to that charter school because he couldn't get there without the bus, so the school wouldn't be getting the money (and if he can get there without the bus, then he shouldn't be assigned the money anyway). If the poor, brown kids aren't going to the charter school, then their money isn't going to the charter school either. So there isn't really a scenario where the charter school can establish an "our kids don't need it" philosophy and still get the kids to get the money. It physically can't happen. The bus needs to come prior to or simultaneous with the funding, or else the funding doesn't appear because those kids aren't going to that school.

It is basically the precipice for the charter school I mentioned having to borrow money to buy busses. As more people learn about the charter schools, more people apply. The poor, brown kids may win the lottery to be accepted, but they can't get there without the bus. Under your scenario (and current reality), the charter school can't tell the kids that if they come a bus will be provided, because they don't get the funds to pay for the bus. So unless the school is willing to go buy its own busses to get those kids to school (to the detriment of its other programs, and what happened in this situation), then those kids never get to go there. So your status quo is barring the entire population of poor, mostly brown kids from accessing the school much more than the proposed legislation would.
 
I'm saying that the bolded is not a material concern because it can't really happen. The federal money being debated is assigned to the kid in the bussing zone. If the charter school is not providing bussing to that kid's zone, then that kid wouldn't go to that charter school because he couldn't get there without the bus, so the school wouldn't be getting the money (and if he can get there without the bus, then he shouldn't be assigned the money anyway). If the poor, brown kids aren't going to the charter school, then their money isn't going to the charter school either. So there isn't really a scenario where the charter school can establish an "our kids don't need it" philosophy and still get the kids to get the money. It physically can't happen. The bus needs to come prior to or simultaneous with the funding, or else the funding doesn't appear because those kids aren't going to that school.

It is basically the precipice for the charter school I mentioned having to borrow money to buy busses. As more people learn about the charter schools, more people apply. The poor, brown kids may win the lottery to be accepted, but they can't get there without the bus. Under your scenario (and current reality), the charter school can't tell the kids that if they come a bus will be provided, because they don't get the funds to pay for the bus. So unless the school is willing to go buy its own busses to get those kids to school (to the detriment of its other programs, and what happened in this situation), then those kids never get to go there. So your status quo is barring the entire population of poor, mostly brown kids from accessing the school much more than the proposed legislation would.

I'm not talking about your individual charter school because I don't know anything about it. I'm talking about the proposed, thankfully defeated legislation. You're missing an essential catch-22 in your analysis, which is the very real possibility that many poor kids won't even apply for the school if it doesn't provide busing, or they'll apply but elect not to attend without busing. So you're saying, give us money for buses but we don't have to spend it until we get enough kids who want buses (who makes the decision on when that threshold is crossed, by the way?). I posit that what a lot - maybe not yours, but a lot - of charter schools would do with the proposed legislation is take the money and never, ever spend it on busing, unless they are forced to by law which is what I am suggesting should happen. If no kids who need buses ever apply or attend but the charter keeps the money anyway - well, frankly, I think that's exactly what a lot of charter school proponents want. So that is money that is going to improve the school that only people with cars can access, and being removed from the amount of money used to support schools for people who don't have cars. It's pretty simple and transparent really.

I think we've both made our points on this several times over and you're welcome to have the last word if you want it.
 
If only there was some organized system in place that had already resolved this issue 75 years ago.

There isn't enough tax money to support the public school system as is, there definitely isn't enough tax money to support a parallel school system with all the same needs and none of the oversight.
 
I'm willing to give this thing a shot though, let's move all of our current schools into old strip malls and cheap office space, let the school children cross the street and go to Wendy's for lunch, and hire teachers with no accreditation or job security. Now all we have to do is search wikipedia for whichever learning style sounds most exotic and put that word in bold letters on our website and newsletters. Now we have a charter system! Oh wait, do we still have competitive sports programs? Get rid of most of those. NOW we have a charter school system!

bushmissionaccomplishedbanner.jpg
 
I'm not talking about your individual charter school because I don't know anything about it. I'm talking about the proposed, thankfully defeated legislation. You're missing an essential catch-22 in your analysis, which is the very real possibility that many poor kids won't even apply for the school if it doesn't provide busing, or they'll apply but elect not to attend without busing. So you're saying, give us money for buses but we don't have to spend it until we get enough kids who want buses (who makes the decision on when that threshold is crossed, by the way?). I posit that what a lot - maybe not yours, but a lot - of charter schools would do with the proposed legislation is take the money and never, ever spend it on busing, unless they are forced to by law which is what I am suggesting should happen. If no kids who need buses ever apply or attend but the charter keeps the money anyway - well, frankly, I think that's exactly what a lot of charter school proponents want. So that is money that is going to improve the school that only people with cars can access, and being removed from the amount of money used to support schools for people who don't have cars. It's pretty simple and transparent really.

I think we've both made our points on this several times over and you're welcome to have the last word if you want it.

I know you're not this dense. The first bolded is the status quo. It is not the possibility it is the reality. But your solution is to keep the status quo so that what .... those poor kids still can't get to the school because they don't have bussing?

The second bolded is just simply wrong, which is my main point. If no kids who need buses ever apply or attend, then the charter never gets the money in the first place. The money follows the kid, like disability funding or cross-county funding. How can the charter keep money that it doesn't get because the kid never goes there? The only way for the charter to get the money is if the kid attends, which requires the bus. Which is why your hypothetical is irrelevant.
 
There is no need to create a whole new parallel system, or even a replacement system. Reform the current system.
 
I know you're not this dense. The first bolded is the status quo. It is not the possibility it is the reality. But your solution is to keep the status quo so that what .... those poor kids still can't get to the school because they don't have bussing?

The second bolded is just simply wrong, which is my main point. If no kids who need buses ever apply or attend, then the charter never gets the money in the first place. The money follows the kid, like disability funding or cross-county funding. How can the charter keep money that it doesn't get because the kid never goes there? The only way for the charter to get the money is if the kid attends, which requires the bus. Which is why your hypothetical is irrelevant.

Well, since you called me dense, I'm not going to let you have the last word after all.

Here's the deal. My wife works at Pilot Elementary in Greensboro right now. There is a busing zone for Pilot. We agree so far since you're constantly bringing up busing zones. The zone includes some middle class, blue collar, and low income housing, including some public housing.

A charter school gets set up outside the zone. The middle class and blue collar and a few low income kids get in. It doesn't bus, so only the ones who have cars can attend. The poorest kids with the crappiest home lives and no cars cannot attend, even if their parents could bestir themselves to apply. Pilot Elementary, therefore, now sees the average intelligence and behavior levels of its student population go down across the board. Pilot Elementary is not saving any money on the kids who have left and don't ride the bus anymore, because (a) they probably never rode it to begin with, and (b) those buses have to run throughout the zone anyway, and a few empty seats makes little difference. Pilot is still obligated to provide transportation, and rightfully gets money to do so.

Now, under the proposed legislation, the "money would follow the child". So those kids who left - who never rode the bus and don't need it now - lived in the zone. Money is to be extracted from that zone and allocated to the charter, following those kids. Under the legislation, the charter has no obligation to establish a bus system to go into the Pilot zone, or anywhere else, and provide transportation to students who live in the Pilot zone. They just get to use the money however they see fit - one of the legislators called it "seed money" - to improve the charter school. Pilot has less money to serve needier kids, because, again, zero money is being saved on the kids who left.

All I am saying is that the bus money should only follow a child if (a) the child needs transportation and (b) the charter school has an obligation to provide it. If the charter school your kid goes to wants to establish a busing system to reach low income kids, I think that is great. That problem could be solved in a number of ways, perhaps by the legislature establishing a grant program and allocating funds for charters to apply for by showing they have a plan to establish busing. The "money follows the child" scheme in the proposed legislation is simply a way to defund and disadvantage traditional public schools and increase economic and racial segregation.

I hope that is clear enough for you to understand. I am not the one being dense here. Neither are the people in Raleigh. They understand this quite well, and have done an excellent job convincing people like you that "money following the child" is just, fair, equitable, and the 'Merican way. They didn't get their way this time but I'm sure they will next session.
 
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