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Report: Kavanaugh won’t commit to recusal from Trump/Mueller related matters

i really, really, don't want to squabble with you RJ. I'm trying to talk shit to lectro at the moment.
 
wakephan09 said:
Sort of, but not to the degree people seem to think. The advancement of science and technology was fundamentally Christian (and Islamic). The Christian and Islamic middle ages responsible for the foundation of the modern university, early articulation of modern scientific principles, and the translation of Classical knowledge to the west.
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somewhat garbled

let me just draw attention to one issue, the new science, the methodology and thought of the Scientific Revolution, was not particularly embraced by the universities, if not downright resisted

the new sience was supported by the academies (the thinktanks of natural science), not the universities,

think Copernicus, the university? nope, Tycho Brahe? no, Johannes Kepler? no - he actually got fired from his non-university teaching job in Graz, Galileo? he quit the university at Padua (something about too much time taken up by too many bored and lazy students, and some Medici money), Descartes? nope, Francis Bacon, not that I know of, Pascal, don't think so, maybe William Harvey a little bit, and so on ...

have to go all the way to Newton, the great synthesizer of the new science, to find a university man, and I don't think that he did all that much actual teaching
 
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1) The period I'm talking about is a good 2-4 centuries before Copernicus and Brahe and Kepler.
2) "modern universities," "scientific principles," and "Classical knowledge" were three separate contributions: I wasn't implying that the first was responsible for the latter two. Indeed, the medieval university for much of the middle ages was largely training clerics. But all of the people you list were ultimately trained at those institutions, even if they weren't professionally employed by them.
3) There's nothing "garbled" about what I wrote. Reductive, yes. Imprecise, sure. But not garbled.

(my mocking of lectro's nonsense has unfortunately been derailed. since people seem generally interested in this conversation, why don't one of y'all start a thread.)
 
Highland Deac said:
The Fox opinion page has an editorial on the "lessons" of Kavanaugh's victory that's pretty telling, albeit unintentionally I'm sure. Some guy named Wayne Allyn Root effusively praises Trump and the GOP for their endless winning. He writes that Trump's score so far in his presidency is "Trump 100, Democrats 0", and praises Trump for "teaching us all lessons about #WINNING...it's all about your ability to bare knuckles brawl. Winning isn't about brains, or IQ, or brilliant ideas, or unique strategy." No, "winning is all about being a relentless fighter, it's all about who wants it more. Trump always wants it more."

He just goes on and on like a Fox version of lectro, but I thought there were three very telling things about his little celebratory rant: He never says that Kavanaugh was innocent of the sexual assault, or that Ford was lying. It's not even a factor in his "lessons." What mattered was that Kavanaugh won, not that he was innocent. Morality doesn't even factor into his lessons, it's about the endless winning. Second, he admits in the passage above that winning isn't about having the better ideas or smarter candidates, it's all about being tougher and meaner and more ruthless than your enemies and doing whatever it takes to win, even if it means getting into the gutter. That's certainly an odd attitude to have in a supposedly civilized democracy, in a Supreme Court hearing, not a war. Third, he praises the GOP for adopting Trump's style and claims that the GOP has "always been the party of wimps", but says that even Collins has now adopted Trump's win-at-all costs attitude. He also gives a backhanded slap to Kavanaugh by claiming that before the hearings Kavanaugh was a "wimpy, middle-aged judge from Yale" who didn't have it in him to fight dirty, but he learned how to be a man and fight like one from Trump. So, before the hearings Kavanaugh was just another brainy elitist, but now he's a Real American because he's a brawler like Trump.

So this is what the GOP has become under Trump: a party that only cares about winning and doesn't care at all about the methods or tactics that are used to achieve it, that openly celebrates bullying, brawling, and using whatever it takes to win, and clearly doesn't care about the morals or character of the people who are leading the party, as long as they're seen as "winners". Who cares if Kavanaugh is guilty of sexual assault or lying in his testimony? That's for wimps to care about. Winners just win and ignore that stuff. This is what Democrats in government and in society as a whole are now up against. How they respond to this challenge may well determine the very future of our democracy.
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The reason Trumpublicans proudly win is the very thing that makes Democrats evil.
 
wakephan09 said:
Sort of, but not to the degree people seem to think. The advancement of science and technology was fundamentally Christian (and Islamic). The Christian and Islamic middle ages responsible for the foundation of the modern university, early articulation of modern scientific principles, and the translation of Classical knowledge to the west.
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Well sure in 1100ad the church was all about learning and studying god’s glorious creation, but when Copernicus et al came along with some new ideas the tide of organized religion largely turned against science and advancement.
 
WFFaithful said:
The reason Trumpublicans proudly win is the very thing that makes Democrats evil.
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Yeah, the double standard on this is something. Let a Democrat get angry or rant in public like Graham or Kavanaugh did, and Fox News and the GOP goes ape shit. If Dr. Ford had done what Kavanaugh did in her opening statement, she would have been dismissed as a crazy woman from that point on. If Obama from 2011 to 2016 had given a single rant, or held a single rally, like Trump has done consistently for two years, then he would likely have been brought up for impeachment by House Republicans. I remember watching NBC's Meet the Press about three or four months into Trump's Presidency, back when people were still shocked by his behavior and tweets and speeches and so forth, and a Republican woman on their roundtable pretty much said that Democrats just needed to ignore Trump's behavior and be "the adults in the room". So of course there's been a double standard from the moment Trump has taken office, and it's definitely hurting the Dems.

ETA: Politico just posted an article about this very topic. It appears that some Democrats are finally starting to awaken to the fact that pretending it's still the 1980s politically and trying to cut deals and play nice with the GOP isn't working out very well. Link: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/10/07/kavanaugh-confirmation-democrats-anger-221089
 
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Highland Deac said:
Yeah, the double standard on this is something. Let a Democrat get angry or rant in public like Graham or Kavanaugh did, and Fox News and the GOP goes ape shit. If Dr. Ford had done what Kavanaugh did in her opening statement, she would have been dismissed as a crazy woman from that point on. If Obama from 2011 to 2016 had given a single rant, or held a single rally, like Trump has done consistently for two years, then he would likely have been brought up for impeachment by House Republicans. I remember watching NBC's Meet the Press about three or four months into Trump's Presidency, back when people were still shocked by his behavior and tweets and speeches and so forth, and a Republican woman on their roundtable pretty much said that Democrats just needed to ignore Trump's behavior and be "the adults in the room". So of course there's been a double standard from the moment Trump has taken office, and it's definitely hurting the Dems.

ETA: Politico just posted an article about this very topic. It appears that some Democrats are finally starting to awaken to the fact that pretending it's still the 1980s politically and trying to cut deals and play nice with the GOP isn't working out very well. Link: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/10/07/kavanaugh-confirmation-democrats-anger-221089
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Obama holds another rally: president for life?
Obama rallying on your dime and not working
Obama's temperament unfit for office
Obama killing our democracy
Etc
 
guy's^

But yeah, very poor form from Corbyn. You'd think he'd be a little less elitist and stupid considering the Beto movement. Texas isn't too far from becoming purple. Pubs better watch out.
 
Highland Deac said:
Yeah, the double standard on this is something. Let a Democrat get angry or rant in public like Graham or Kavanaugh did, and Fox News and the GOP goes ape shit. If Dr. Ford had done what Kavanaugh did in her opening statement, she would have been dismissed as a crazy woman from that point on. If Obama from 2011 to 2016 had given a single rant, or held a single rally, like Trump has done consistently for two years, then he would likely have been brought up for impeachment by House Republicans. I remember watching NBC's Meet the Press about three or four months into Trump's Presidency, back when people were still shocked by his behavior and tweets and speeches and so forth, and a Republican woman on their roundtable pretty much said that Democrats just needed to ignore Trump's behavior and be "the adults in the room". So of course there's been a double standard from the moment Trump has taken office, and it's definitely hurting the Dems.

ETA: Politico just posted an article about this very topic. It appears that some Democrats are finally starting to awaken to the fact that pretending it's still the 1980s politically and trying to cut deals and play nice with the GOP isn't working out very well. Link: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/10/07/kavanaugh-confirmation-democrats-anger-221089
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That article doesn’t really offer much. What it doesn’t address is that many Democrats would have deserted the party if they didn’t force out Franken. And many Republicans would have deserted the party if they didn’t force through Kavanaugh. This isn’t a difference in tactics. This is a difference in basic values.

Republicans use Democrat values against us. The only way to stop that is to gain power and use it to force Republicans to operate by the same values.
 
RChildress107 said:
Lol.

It’s almost like people don’t understand what “checks and balances” actually means.
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Do conservatives think that they can just crap over Democratic norms and tear apart the fabric of this nation and that there won't be repercussions? They are fighting against demographics, and the Democrats aren't going to forget.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Do conservatives think that they can just crap over Democratic norms and tear apart the fabric of this nation and that there won't be repercussions? They are fighting against demographics, and the Democrats aren't going to forget.
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They do think so. There haven’t been repercussions yet.

Democrats forget easily. Democrats have the big problem that too many people on the far left and center don’t think there’s any difference between the two parties. I hope Kavanaugh represents a dividing line but who knows.
 
PhDeac said:
That article doesn’t really offer much. What it doesn’t address is that many Democrats would have deserted the party if they didn’t force out Franken. And many Republicans would have deserted the party if they didn’t force through Kavanaugh. This isn’t a difference in tactics. This is a difference in basic values.

Republicans use Democrat values against us. The only way to stop that is to gain power and use it to force Republicans to operate by the same values.
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I don't think it's a great article, but I posted it because it does discuss the point of my post - that more and more Democrats are getting tired of watching the GOP adopt the tactics they do, and their frustration that the Democrats, to date, seem to have no adequate or effective response. I think the performance of Senate Democrats in the Kavanaugh hearings was pretty weak overall, especially in their questioning of Kavanaugh. They could have gone after the tone of his opening statement and the partisanship in it, they could have responded much more forcefully to Graham's tirade, and for the most part they did nothing. It is indeed a difference in values, but at some point they need to be more forceful in expressing those values and in responding to the GOP's tactics. They haven't done so thus far, it seems.
 
That’s true. Democrats are willing to cede those values in the name of decorum.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Something about this time seems different.
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I hope so but I don’t know. I think there are some fighters running for office and hopefully voting Schumer and Pelosi out of leadership.
 
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