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Should Obama compromise/negotiate with the Tea Party?

ABCDeac said:
Yeah, well, that would make everything better, right? Saving your tax dollars while the world crumbles. SILVER LINING! TEA PARTY!
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It would make it a helluva lot better than it is. You don't think there will be a national revolt if this shit isn't figured out when W-2s come out at the end of the year? Every single person will be looking at their withholdings and saying WTF did they take my money for 1/4 of the year if they didn't pay bills for 1/4 of the year? Give me my 1/4 back.
 
RJKarl said:
So the bold red part doesn't matter?

You constantly amaze me.
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Sure, but pretty easy to figure out what that is. Calculate the net collected from 10/1 - 12/31 over what was spent, and everyone gets their pro rata share back.
 
That's total crap! The government had the duty to collect taxes to pay for those needs
 
i dont see why obama would negotiate/compromise with a bunch of donks that can't even negotiate/compromise with themselves.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
I want to know when we get to stop paying federal income taxes. The Taxing clause in the Constitution reads: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States ..."

So, if the debts are not being paid then there is no power to tax. If a default occurs and this shit drags on, there are some serious dollars in play and a legitimate Constitutional argument exists against the government's ability to tax for that period.
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You need to do some significant phrase twisting to get to an argument that isn't completely laughable, never mind a legitimate one.
 
Many of 2&2's concepts make Cong. Yoho look like a cross between Adam Smith and Stephen Hawking.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
It would make it a helluva lot better than it is. You don't think there will be a national revolt if this shit isn't figured out when W-2s come out at the end of the year? Every single person will be looking at their withholdings and saying WTF did they take my money for 1/4 of the year if they didn't pay bills for 1/4 of the year? Give me my 1/4 back.
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The government isn't paying for anything now?
 
jhmd2000 said:
That's certainly correct, but that's not the only thing happening.

God help us and against the will of most people, the poorly-reasoned (and even more poorly-timed) plan of ACA is the law of the land. John Roberts put it on the 2012 ballot, and the Republicans were dumb enough to pick the only candidate that couldn't run against it. Fine. Bad laws happen, and the private sector will work around it. It sucks, but it's survivable (ironically, it's hurting the working poor with existing insurance policies the most. Classic).

It might only be the intention of House Republicans to use the shutdown in an ill-fated attempt to block ACA, but whether by accident or design, it's not a bad idea ($17T up the creek) to field test which nonessential functions the people footing the bill can live without. Given that both parties have no intention of ever cutting spending and this Administration has never advanced a plan to seriously address the debt, it does create a potential opportunity---if they were smart enough to take it----for the Republicans to show how much money that our government wasn't allowed to waste during the Shutdown, and return that to them in the form of a rebate, rate reduction, refundable credit, and/or national debt retirement. So...if you operate a daycare out of your home in the Mississippi Delta, and suddenly $250.00 shows up one day as your share of the savings for not having the gift shop open in Bangladesh consulate that you weren't going to, people might get a sense of the fact that yes, you can actually run a government without deficit spending. Since the people are the ultimate stakeholders in an efficient government, it might not be bad to help bring them closer to their stake in a well-managed central government.
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THE DEUCE said:
the cost is now at 20+ Billion dollars bc of the shutdown......now that is conservative!!!
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Not to mention the people who have lost their jobs.
 
One thing is for sure, Jed Bartlett would wipe the floor with these assholes.
 
WFFaithful said:
The government isn't paying for anything now?
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They should just leave those monuments open. They don't need staff.

If people have to worry about vandalism or insurance, they can blame Obama.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
It would make it a helluva lot better than it is. You don't think there will be a national revolt if this shit isn't figured out when W-2s come out at the end of the year? Every single person will be looking at their withholdings and saying WTF did they take my money for 1/4 of the year if they didn't pay bills for 1/4 of the year? Give me my 1/4 back.
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I can't tell if you believe this, or if you are just trolling. I will just assume the latter, and ignore it.
 
ABC, that is actually a "moderate" position for 2&2.....
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
I want to know when we get to stop paying federal income taxes. The Taxing clause in the Constitution reads: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States ..."

So, if the debts are not being paid then there is no power to tax. If a default occurs and this shit drags on, there are some serious dollars in play and a legitimate Constitutional argument exists against the government's ability to tax for that period.
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That's actually a pretty clever argument and strict constructionist to the extreme -- because the founders wrote "and" instead of "or", failure to do all three invalidates taxes. So, Congressional authority rests on the choice of conjunction. Of course, if they had written "or", then one could reasonable argue that means money can only be allocated to one of the three. At the same time, default wouldn't necessarily mean that taxes are not being used to pay debts. If any tax revenue is spent on paying any portion of debt (no matter how small and whether or not that covers all obligations due), that would seem to mean that taxes are being spent on debt, overcoming the technical objection of the conjunction.

So, 2&2 is obviously incorrect. But, playing that game, I think you could actually claim that failure to pay the debt actually removes all forms of taxation EXCEPT the income tax. As the 16th Amendment reads "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration." In other words, this amendment may separately establish the ability to tax income from other Congressional taxing authority established in Article 1 Section 8. And, the 16th amendment does not direct taxation to specific purposes. Thus, the income tax stands, but tariffs and excise taxes do not.
 
I wonder if this debacle ends up hurting Ryan and the House Republcans. The Dems and Obama had gritted their collective teeth and said "yes" to the draconian GOP House budget. That is now off the table. I'd be very surprised if the Dems don't hold out for closer to the Senate budget.

The House Farm Bill is totally dead now. If Obama's people and the Dems in the House play it right, they could use the Ryan Farm Bill to to attack all of the suburban collar House Members. It's obscene cuts in food stamps and increases in subsidies could be a real albatross for next tear's elections.

Add the shutdown and the farm bill and the House GOP may have done the impossible. They may have put their unassailable, gerrymandered majority in jeopardy. Had they not shut down the government and passed the farm bill as it always was done, the House wasn't in play at all.
 
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