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Should there be consequences for universities that don't stand up for free speech?

DeacMan said:
What is the point you are making here? When points are grounded in relativism vs. the actions or plights of others with whom there is no easy comparison they often lose their force.

Is it good for college campuses not to have significant numbers of conservative professors? Does that fully advance the mission of most universities that strive to promote critical thought? Those are the types of questions being asked about college professors. How, beyond you wanting to "burn" jmhd, does that play into the question of whether a homosexual may suffer harm if someone refuses to bake a cake for their wedding on religious grounds?
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It's not relative. I'm not giving that ground. Allowing Christians the freedom to refuse to bake a gay wedding cake isn't equivalent to allowing businesses to deny service to gay people, and its certainly not fucking equivalent to conservative academics being shut out or unwelcome at some places of employment. Expounding upon that point, it's ludicrous for a person who supports "Right to work" legislation to complain about that.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
It's not relative. I'm not giving that ground. Allowing Christians the freedom to refuse to bake a gay wedding cake isn't equivalent to allowing businesses to deny service to gay people, and its certainly not fucking equivalent to conservative academics being shut out or unwelcome at some places of employment. Expounding upon that point, it's ludicrous for a person who supports "Right to work" legislation to complain about that.
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I thought you were making a relative point. If that isn't the case, then I really am curious what your point was to jmhd. Why make the statement if it wasn't to suggest it was relative.

Also, help me understand the distinction you are making between a Christian baker and a business. I likely agree, but I'm not clear on what you are now saying.

And I'm not even suggesting the gay rights example is at all the same thing as the professor example. My point is they are not the same - at all. Nor am I arguing there should be requirements for hiring conservative professors. I'm arguing colleges would be better for it given the talk they all offer about being bastions of critical thinking. Finally, I'd be curious as to your views on permitting tenure at public universities if your view is that colleges should be right to work environments.

Thanks,
 
This is a picture of the police hanging out in the student union while shit was going crazy outside and people were being assaulted. Who told them to stand down?
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DeacMan said:
I thought you were making a relative point. If that isn't the case, then I really am curious what your point was to jmhd. Why make the statement if it wasn't to suggest it was relative.

Also, help me understand the distinction you are making between a Christian baker and a business. I likely agree, but I'm not clear on what you are now saying.

And I'm not even suggesting the gay rights example is at all the same thing as the professor example. My point is they are not the same - at all. Nor am I arguing there should be requirements for hiring conservative professors. I'm arguing colleges would be better for it given the talk they all offer about being bastions of critical thinking. Finally, I'd be curious as to your views on permitting tenure at public universities if your view is that colleges should be right to work environments.

Thanks,
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JHMD had a fair point about the need for liberals to accept the existence of opposing ideas. My outrage was about his use of the "out of the closet" phrase. It's egregious for a social conservative like him to use that phrase so liberally. Not too many conservative professors fearing rejection of their parents, or considering suicide out of shame.

As for conservative academics and right to work legislation, I think right to work is bullshit, it's just a bulwark against organized labor sold to labor as job creating propaganda. Regarding conservative professors, I had a few and they were very good. I wish that Academia was more open to conservatives, as long as they aren't teaching and advertising intolerance for minorities.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
JHMD had a fair point about the need for liberals to accept the existence of opposing ideas. My outrage was about his use of the "out of the closet" phrase. It's egregious for a social conservative like him to use that phrase so liberally. Not too many conservative professors fearing rejection of their parents, or considering suicide out of shame.

As for conservative academics and right to work legislation, I think right to work is bullshit, it's just a bulwark against organized labor sold to labor as job creating propaganda. Regarding conservative professors, I had a few and they were very good. I wish that Academia was more open to conservatives, as long as they aren't teaching and advertising intolerance for minorities.
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You might be expecting a bit much on the out of the closet point from someone, like me, who doesn't think so starkly in general. But I get your point. It isn't unfair. I'd note that conservative professors do worry about their ability to advance their careers. Certainly not life or death, but still pretty meaningful given how hard any professional person can work to try and get ahead.

Seems to me we should be avoiding professors who teach or advertise intolerance as a general matter. Glad you wish here were more conservatives in academia. Seems you would be against tenure at public universities if you are for right to work in that environment and for it if you think universities should unionize, but I get those are not necessarily easy assumptions.
 
Liquid Karma said:
They are evil for myriad other views, but taking a stance that immigration law be followed shouldn't really be one of those reasons IMO.
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I'm always intrigued in the seemingly dissonant argument (for both sides) re: immigration and states'/local rights.
 
In my view Obama made immigration a bigger issue that it normally would have been simply by refusing to enforce the law. That turned it into a two pronged issue. One of substance and one of fundamental process. To me it was a mistake politically on his part.
 
I don't feel like I had a shortage of conservative professors at Wake, Dr. Broyles being the best of the bunch.
 
DeacMan said:
You might be expecting a bit much on the out of the closet point from someone, like me, who doesn't think so starkly in general. But I get your point. It isn't unfair. I'd note that conservative professors do worry about their ability to advance their careers. Certainly not life or death, but still pretty meaningful given how hard any professional person can work to try and get ahead.

Seems to me we should be avoiding professors who teach or advertise intolerance as a general matter. Glad you wish here were more conservatives in academia. Seems you would be against tenure at public universities if you are for right to work in that environment and for it if you think universities should unionize, but I get those are not necessarily easy assumptions.
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This situation is also true of Hollywood, where liberals have successfully suppressed free speech from those who disagree with them. I posted this clip from Ben Stein on another thread, but it is absolutely analogous to the situation in academia. Liberals aren't interested in free speech. If they tell you that they are, they're lying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd4aLyr-3Xc
 
Must have weak convictions to let a few liberal snowflakes keep you from talking about what you want to.
 
Obama deported more immigrants than any president in American history. Obviously facts don't seem to matter anymore since it's not as good as talking points or spin.
 
Liquid Karma said:
They are evil for myriad other views, but taking a stance that immigration law be followed shouldn't really be one of those reasons IMO.
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They're basically asking university professors, administrators, students, etc. to inform on their students, friends, etc. To whom exactly? ICE? Administrators? Campus police? Local police? That's horrible and has all sorts of awful implications for students while creating an unbelievably hostile campus atmosphere to Latino students in particularly.

If you want to come up with a way of denying undocumented students access to public universities, then that's one thing. I disagree with it, but whatever. To threaten them with deportation after they're admitted runs the risk of turning campuses into micro-police states.

ETA: I acknowledge that my analysis takes a bit of a leap (and y'all are probably going to call me histrionic), but who does this law even refer to if not to students? I'm at a big public university in a city with a ton of undocumented immigrants. Do these idiots think that universities are harboring non-student undocumented immigrants? It's a straw man that has pretty devastating consequences for undocumented students enrolled in public universities. The Columbia president's response has a similar reading of the proposal, fwiw.
 
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Not to mention to implement enforcement of that magnitude would require a pretty large expansion of the federal government.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Obama deported more immigrants than any president in American history. Obviously facts don't seem to matter anymore since it's not as good as talking points or spin.
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Eh, to me that's sort of like saying unemployment was super low because so many people moved completely out of the workforce. Obama made that claim on the basis that he turned away lots of people at the border - i.e. the definition of "deported" was changed. Put it this way, the union of Border Patrol workers has put out multiple statements about how happy they are Trump is in the White House because he'll actually offer them real support.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Not to mention to implement enforcement of that magnitude would require a pretty large expansion of the federal government.
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Just have admissions make sure not to admit undocumented students. The current students will be out of the system shortly.

Besides, when has federal government expansion ever scared you? Enforcement of immigration law is one thing the federal government absolutely should be handling, and if necessary expanding to cover effectively.
 
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