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So has anyone changed their thinking on Gitmo

Did you seriously just compare waterboarding to beheading? You're an idiot.

He was saying if they acted like barbarians we could and that any means we cna use are legitimate.

And YES waterboarding is barbaric and against international law. It's totally irrelevant who the person is:

"All nations that are signatory to the United Nations Convention Against Torture have agreed they are subject to the explicit prohibition on torture under any condition. This was affirmed by Saadi v. Italy in which the European Court of Human Rights, on 28 February 2008, upheld the absolute nature of the torture ban by ruling that international law permits no exceptions to it.[168][169] The treaty states "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture".[170] Additionally, signatories of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are bound to Article 5, which states, "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment".[171] Many signatories of the convention have made specific declarations and reservations regarding the interpretation of the term "torture" and restricted the jurisdiction of its enforcement.[172] However, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, stated on the subject "I would have no problems with describing this practice as falling under the prohibition of torture", and that violators of the UN Convention Against Torture should be prosecuted under the principle of universal jurisdiction.[173]

Bent Sørensen, Senior Medical Consultant to the International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims and former member of the United Nations Committee Against Torture has said:

It's a clear-cut case: Waterboarding can without any reservation be labeled as torture. It fulfils all of the four central criteria that according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT) defines an act of torture. First, when water is forced into your lungs in this fashion, in addition to the pain you are likely to experience an immediate and extreme fear of death. You may even suffer a heart attack from the stress or damage to the lungs and brain from inhalation of water and oxygen deprivation. In other words there is no doubt that waterboarding causes severe physical and/or mental suffering– one central element in the UNCAT's definition of torture. In addition the CIA's waterboarding clearly fulfills the three additional definition criteria stated in the Convention for a deed to be labeled torture, since it is 1) done intentionally, 2) for a specific purpose and 3) by a representative of a state– in this case the US.[174]
 
A convicted terrorist has water thrown down his nose/mouth in order to simulate drowning until he reveals information that can save people's lives vs. an innocent person is kidnapped and has his head chopped off from behind with a machete.....hmmmmm.....
 
we also tortured many others including several innocent people. Al Masri, an inncoent German was kidnapped and tortured for months. Then he was left penniless on the street in Albania.

How about the two Brits were tortured for eight months AFTER the British govenrment topld us they were completely innocent?

There is NO excuse for the war crimes committed and condoned by the Bush Administration.

Two decorated generals (Taguba and Sanchez) gave up their careers to tell of the "systemic" use of turture under Bush.
 
People need to realize that there is a distinction between torture and interrogation.
 
and for four hundred years waterboarding has been called torture,

It is against international law in every case to waterboard anyone.

What we did to al Masri , the Brits, a totally innocent Canadian and others were torture according to the Red Cross and international law.

Generals Taguba nd Sanchez gave up brilliant careers to tell the truth about the "systemic use of torture".

What Bush was put every American serviceperson and every America who travels to many countries for years to come.

To me we worse than the barbarians. Not only did we torture people we actively looked for justification for being immoral war criminals.
 
To me we worse than the barbarians. Not only did we torture people we actively looked for justification for being immoral war criminals.

Except the people we "tortured" (to use your word) are still alive, get 3 square meals a day, enjoy cots and their holy book and exercise time down there at Club Gitmo.

They are a helluva lot better off than a POW captured by Al-Zarqawi or the Japanese in the 40s or the Viet Cong in the 60s.

Helluva lot better off.
 
That's nonsensical BS.

If you or I lit a building on fire on purpose, we'd be charged with arson.

Every major FD in the country sets buildings on fire to practice firefighting. They don't get charged with arson.

It's EXACTLY the same.
 
Except the people we "tortured" (to use your word) are still alive, get 3 square meals a day, enjoy cots and their holy book and exercise time down there at Club Gitmo.

They are a helluva lot better off than a POW captured by Al-Zarqawi or the Japanese in the 40s or the Viet Cong in the 60s.

Helluva lot better off.

That's because the United States is a helluva lot better a country than Vietnam in the '60s or Japan in the '40s and our people are a helluva lot better than any al-Queda terrorists.
 
Except the people we "tortured" (to use your word) are still alive, get 3 square meals a day, enjoy cots and their holy book and exercise time down there at Club Gitmo.

They are a helluva lot better off than a POW captured by Al-Zarqawi or the Japanese in the 40s or the Viet Cong in the 60s.

Helluva lot better off.

So in your world as long as we feed them and house them, we can torture them the other fourteen hours per day.

So Go, if it's OK for us to do it any time and to anyone, then it's OK if your mom is walking to her car from the store to picked upo by Iranians and tortured as long they feed her and house her.
 
That type of stuff happens in Iran.

rj, you are headed down a dead end path. The basic fundamental belief is that American Lives >>>> Iran, Iraq, etc life.

For you and other liberals, its an ===
 
No my basic premise is American are better than the barbarians. we know what should and shouldn't be done and shouldn't do it.

As a "liberal" to you, I believe in American exceptionalism and that we are moral. We don't do things because we cna get away with it.

Also i've been around the world a couple of times, our use of torture puts all Americans who do business overseas at risk.

The way to show is beter than they are is not to act like they do.
 
So in your world as long as we feed them and house them, we can torture them the other fourteen hours per day.

So Go, if it's OK for us to do it any time and to anyone, then it's OK if your mom is walking to her car from the store to picked upo by Iranians and tortured as long they feed her and house her.

My mom wasn't trying to kill Americans today (tomorrow who knows, if they kick John Rich off Celeb Apprentice too soon, watch out people of Atlanta)....

These guys are enemies of the state, they are below the common criminal. I would argue the common murderer is treated worse in our prison system than these jokers.
 
American lives are not greater than Iraqi lives, or anyone else's. Our Military serves the greater good, and sometimes that means we have to make decisions which disagree with our morals. It's a slippery slope, but we have to trust our elected officials to maintain it.
 
American lives are not greater than Iraqi lives, or anyone else's. Our Military serves the greater good, and sometimes that means we have to make decisions which disagree with our morals. It's a slippery slope, but we have to trust our elected officials to maintain it.

When we are at war with another country, our troops lives are more important.

But I understand your meaning, that's why we have rules of engagement, that's why we have such great standards for our prisoners, that's why we avoid civilian casualties at all costs, that's why we don't use our WMD, that's why we give billions of dollars and relief to countries we invade, that's why we allow countries we invade attempt to rule themselves, etc etc etc.
 
Micheal Isikoff just gave the timeline for KSM:

2003 Waterboarded -told CIA the courier had retired, but didn't know real name
2004 - no waterboarding - gave more conflicting data
2007- got guy's name-nothing to do with KSM

According to Isikoff, his CIA source had been using this specific guy as the proof that waterboarding didn't work.
 
Micheal Isikoff just gave the timeline for KSM:

2003 Waterboarded -told CIA the courier had retired, but didn't know real name
2004 - no waterboarding - gave more conflicting data
2007- got guy's name-nothing to do with KSM

According to Isikoff, his CIA source had been using this specific guy as the proof that waterboarding didn't work.

Even if waterboarding is done away with, there are limitless other torture and interrogation methods, physical and mental, which could be used to the same degree for the same purposes.
 
Hand, the right is saying waterboarding and enhanced interrogation was integral to getting OBL, Isikoff and his CIA source are saying this was the ultiumate proof that it didn't work.
 
Hand, the right is saying waterboarding and enhanced interrogation was integral to getting OBL, Isikoff and his CIA source are saying this was the ultiumate proof that it didn't work.

The ultimate proof that it didn't work, or doesn't ever work? Is waterboarding understood to be 100% effective and fool proof? As to specific torture methods, I don't have a dog in this fight. If a CIA operative believes that waterboarding is ineffective, I don't have any proof to disagree with him. My point was that even if waterboarding is done away with, "enhanced interrogation tactics", or torture, will not end.
 
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