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Sutton Sports Performance Center Catches Fire At Wake Forest University

TenaciousKory said:
Not sure. I'm not a member of the YDSA. Is this a serious question or a rhetorical deflection? I can certainly see room for both issues in their platform.
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of course there is 'room' for all sorts of concerns. I think Biff's point is that this is an easy #outrage of the week with an outcome of questionable value vs tackling a problem that is less sexy but may be of more substance in the long run
 
DistrictDeacon said:
Guilty until proven innocent.
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Weird statement. I was responding to Gossett’s sentiment about people who are found guilty within the criminal justice system. Also are you arguing she did not take a picture in celebration of the Confederate flag?

Bob, punishment is some sort of sanction for one’s actions. Rehabilitation is evidence that someone has changed.

You all need to stop being so dumb with your fake outrage.
 
There's a spectrum between firing her immediately and accepting her lame apology

If she's done so much great stuff for the diversity of Wake Forest, then lets talk about it

You guys are thinking about this only from her perspective and how unfair it is to poor ole Martha. Imagine you're a black wake student or alum, this comes out, and after a quick stock written apology everyone moves on. Does that seem fair? Is that a fair response to our black students and alums, who I'm sure at one point or another felt uncomfortable at Wake because of this old South bullshit we STILL dance around and don't really do anything about? When a pic of our longtime dean of admissions comes out gleefully posing in front of a confederate flag, wake takes the path of least resistance and tries to move on as quickly and as quietly as possible? What comfort does that actually give you that anything has changed?

All you older guys are talking about what the flag meant to you and how you may have misinterpreted it and how you're different and how you think Martha is ok to stay as Dean. It's not about you or me, it's about being accountable and apologetic to the people in our Wake Forest family that were hurt and are still being hurt by this nonsense. While it may be unfair to dig up 40 year old pictures, its even more unfair that it's taken 40 years to call this out as bullshit. I'm not calling for her immediate termination, but I am calling for some open dialogue and evidence that Wake is taking this seriously and listening to those that need an explanation the most.
 
Growing up in Atlanta in the 70s, we'd go to the beach in the Florida panhandle and use a confederate flag raft and lay on a rebel flag towel. Several states in the south had the confederate flag as part of their state flag well into the 80s and 90s. Country music stations played "proud to be a rebel cause the south's gonna do it again" and "if the south woulda won we had it made." The Dukes of Hazzard ruled the ratings and I carried a lunch box with the "general lee" on it to elementary school. Women wore bikinis with the confederate flag on them. Grandparents talked about "heritage."

This is simply how the south was in the 70s. As a white kid, it never occurred to me that this was racist, mainly because I didn't think about it one way or the other. My use of the confederate flag towel when I was 9 didn't make me a racist, although the existence of the towel certainly speaks volumes about our racist society.

It takes some growing up, both as individuals and as a society, to get to where we are today, and it's a huge improvement. But anyone who says that you were a racist in 1978 if you went to a KA party is being unreasonable. Were we part of an institutionally racist society? Of course we were, and we still are. But that doesn't necessarily point to a personal level of racism. I just wanted to ride some waves and get dry. As time passed and as people spoke out about it, as a society we realized that there's more hate than heritage in that flag, and so we evolved to where we are today.

I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind about this, but I suspect there are a lot of white kids out there who grew up in the same environment and who aren't going to post on this thread, because they don't want to be labeled a racist like I'm going to be.
 
buckets said:
There's a spectrum between firing her immediately and accepting her lame apology

If she's done so much great stuff for the diversity of Wake Forest, then lets talk about it

You guys are thinking about this only from her perspective and how unfair it is to poor ole Martha. Imagine you're a black wake student or alum, this comes out, and after a quick stock written apology everyone moves on. Does that seem fair? Is that a fair response to our black students and alums, who I'm sure at one point or another felt uncomfortable at Wake because of this old South bullshit we STILL dance around and don't really do anything about? When a pic of our longtime dean of admissions comes out gleefully posing in front of a confederate flag, wake takes the path of least resistance and tries to move on as quickly and as quietly as possible? What comfort does that actually give you that anything has changed?

All you older guys are talking about what the flag meant to you and how you may have misinterpreted it and how you're different and how you think Martha is ok to stay as Dean. It's not about you or me, it's about being accountable and apologetic to the people in our Wake Forest family that were hurt and are still being hurt by this nonsense. While it may be unfair to dig up 40 year old pictures, its even more unfair that it's taken 40 years to call this out as bullshit. I'm not calling for her immediate termination, but I am calling for some open dialogue and evidence that Wake is taking this seriously and listening to those that need an explanation the most.
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A lot of this is true. What I don't get is that when all of the Northam crap hit the fan why others in positions of power/responsibility didn't spend a few minutes to see if they had similar problems. Then she (and others) could have gotten ahead of their potential situations.
 
DeacDiggler said:
Growing up in Atlanta in the 70s, we'd go to the beach in the Florida panhandle and use a confederate flag raft and lay on a rebel flag towel. Several states in the south had the confederate flag as part of their state flag well into the 80s and 90s. Country music stations played "proud to be a rebel cause the south's gonna do it again" and "if the south woulda won we had it made." The Dukes of Hazzard ruled the ratings and I carried a lunch box with the "general lee" on it to elementary school. Women wore bikinis with the confederate flag on them. Grandparents talked about "heritage."

This is simply how the south was in the 70s. As a white kid, it never occurred to me that this was racist, mainly because I didn't think about it one way or the other. My use of the confederate flag towel when I was 9 didn't make me a racist, although the existence of the towel certainly speaks volumes about our racist society.

It takes some growing up, both as individuals and as a society, to get to where we are today, and it's a huge improvement. But anyone who says that you were a racist in 1978 if you went to a KA party is being unreasonable. Were we part of an institutionally racist society? Of course we were, and we still are. But that doesn't necessarily point to a personal level of racism. I just wanted to ride some waves and get dry. As time passed and as people spoke out about it, as a society we realized that there's more hate than heritage in that flag, and so we evolved to where we are today.

I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind about this, but I suspect there are a lot of white kids out there who grew up in the same environment and who aren't going to post on this thread, because they don't want to be labeled a racist like I'm going to be.
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There's a shitton of difference in 9 and 19, bro.
 
buckets said:
There's a spectrum between firing her immediately and accepting her lame apology

If she's done so much great stuff for the diversity of Wake Forest, then lets talk about it

You guys are thinking about this only from her perspective and how unfair it is to poor ole Martha. Imagine you're a black wake student or alum, this comes out, and after a quick stock written apology everyone moves on. Does that seem fair? Is that a fair response to our black students and alums, who I'm sure at one point or another felt uncomfortable at Wake because of this old South bullshit we STILL dance around and don't really do anything about? When a pic of our longtime dean of admissions comes out gleefully posing in front of a confederate flag, wake takes the path of least resistance and tries to move on as quickly and as quietly as possible? What comfort does that actually give you that anything has changed?

All you older guys are talking about what the flag meant to you and how you may have misinterpreted it and how you're different and how you think Martha is ok to stay as Dean. It's not about you or me, it's about being accountable and apologetic to the people in our Wake Forest family that were hurt and are still being hurt by this nonsense. While it may be unfair to dig up 40 year old pictures, its even more unfair that it's taken 40 years to call this out as bullshit. I'm not calling for her immediate termination, but I am calling for some open dialogue and evidence that Wake is taking this seriously and listening to those that need an explanation the most.
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Co-sign. My only contribution would be to parse diversity and inclusion as terms.

Diversity is increasing admissions numbers. Inclusion is creating and maintaining an environment for non-dominant groups - this includes a genuine interrogation of history and tradition; also an honest attempt at trying to imagine what this campus looks like for others. The others being people who aren't immediately comfortable when they step foot on campus. The Wake Forest bubble isn't just the campus' distance from downtown.

By the pure demographics, it seems Allman has contributed to diversity. We could argue her true impact until we're tired. The bigger question might be: what's the point in increasing the diversity of a place if the administration is unwilling to take the necessary several steps to make it a truly inclusive one?
 
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PhDeac said:
Weird statement. I was responding to Gossett’s sentiment about people who are found guilty within the criminal justice system. Also are you arguing she did not take a picture in celebration of the Confederate flag?
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She's guilty of being in a picture. You also want to proclaim her of being guilty of being racist, without providing any evidence. Hence, guilty until proven innocent.
 
RJKarl said:
This is so full of shit. KAs in the 70s knew what they were doing. It wasn't just the flag. They understood they were racists and bigots against non-Christians. They knew it was wrong but didn't give a damn.

To try to sweep their overt actions under the table is totally dishonest. To say the members of KA didn't understand is total bullshit.
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No actually, you are full of fucking shit and have once again shown that you are one of the dumbest, head up your ass posters ever on the boards.

It is completely obvious however that you cannot wrap your pea brain around the concept of personal growth, since you have experienced none. Go look in the mirror, do some googling on personal hygiene, learn how to dress like a non-homeless adult, become gainfully employed, and then maybe you will have the standing to judge people for their actions of 40 years ago.

You simply cannot, cannot strictly apply the social mores of 40 years ago to today. This is the main reason why we shouldn't 'make america great again' because the 70s and all the decades before were shitty, people were shitty and clueless, no one was woke and no one cared either way.
 
I do think it is true that there needs to be framework for forgiveness and reconciliation for stuff like this. I don't think everyone who has done a racist or insensitive thing in their life is incapable of learning and changing their ways.

However, I do think it is the responsibility of the person who committed the error to seek forgiveness and reconciliation first. Her lame-ass cut-and-paste apology is so empty. It speaks nothing of trying to reconcile with the fact that KA and many Wake Forest students engaged in a lot of racist -- or, charitably, racially tone deaf -- actions for a long, long time.
 
buckets said:
There's a spectrum between firing her immediately and accepting her lame apology

If she's done so much great stuff for the diversity of Wake Forest, then lets talk about it

You guys are thinking about this only from her perspective and how unfair it is to poor ole Martha. Imagine you're a black wake student or alum, this comes out, and after a quick stock written apology everyone moves on. Does that seem fair? Is that a fair response to our black students and alums, who I'm sure at one point or another felt uncomfortable at Wake because of this old South bullshit we STILL dance around and don't really do anything about? When a pic of our longtime dean of admissions comes out gleefully posing in front of a confederate flag, wake takes the path of least resistance and tries to move on as quickly and as quietly as possible? What comfort does that actually give you that anything has changed?

All you older guys are talking about what the flag meant to you and how you may have misinterpreted it and how you're different and how you think Martha is ok to stay as Dean. It's not about you or me, it's about being accountable and apologetic to the people in our Wake Forest family that were hurt and are still being hurt by this nonsense. While it may be unfair to dig up 40 year old pictures, its even more unfair that it's taken 40 years to call this out as bullshit. I'm not calling for her immediate termination, but I am calling for some open dialogue and evidence that Wake is taking this seriously and listening to those that need an explanation the most.
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If you want to talk about dialogue, sure --- I think what is lacking in the dialogue is that the University bears as much or really more blame here. This wasn't a photo hanging on a wall somewhere, it WAS PUBLISHED IN THE UNIVERSITY YEARBOOK. The yearbook absolutely has faculty oversight. You can't just put anything in there. I haven't seen any apologies from Hatch on behalf of the school.

The Gov Northam photo was published in a MED SCHOOL yearbook. So who is more responsible, the people who were posed in a photo one day in 1971, or the school who has a responsibility to its student body knowingly publishes said photo?
 
TheTwinAndreBen said:
No actually, you are full of fucking shit and have once again shown that you are one of the dumbest, head up your ass posters ever on the boards.

It is completely obvious however that you cannot wrap your pea brain around the concept of personal growth, since you have experienced none. Go look in the mirror, do some googling on personal hygiene, learn how to dress like a non-homeless adult, become gainfully employed, and then maybe you will have the standing to judge people for their actions of 40 years ago.

You simply cannot, cannot strictly apply the social mores of 40 years ago to today. This is the main reason why we shouldn't 'make america great again' because the 70s and all the decades before were shitty, people were shitty and clueless, no one was woke and no one cared either way.
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This makes less than no sense in each paragraph. You know nothing about me.

The last paragraph shows you to be an absolute moron and incapable of reading. What you quoted me as saying condemns the knowing, willing and hateful actions of those specific people in the 70s.

You are a fucking idiot.
 
TheTwinAndreBen said:
If you want to talk about dialogue, sure --- I think what is lacking in the dialogue is that the University bears as much or really more blame here. This wasn't a photo hanging on a wall somewhere, it WAS PUBLISHED IN THE UNIVERSITY YEARBOOK. The yearbook absolutely has faculty oversight. You can't just put anything in there. I haven't seen any apologies from Hatch on behalf of the school.

The Gov Northam photo was published in a MED SCHOOL yearbook. So who is more responsible, the people who were posed in a photo one day in 1971, or the school who has a responsibility to its student body knowingly publishes said photo?
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Definitely

And that's where I feel like hold some accountability to demand that Wake Forest steps up and really addresses the situation head on
 
RJKarl said:
This makes less than no sense in each paragraph. You know nothing about me.

The last paragraph shows you to be an absolute moron and incapable of reading. What you quoted me as saying condemns the knowing, willing and hateful actions of those specific people in the 70s.

You are a fucking idiot.
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Maybe I should subscribe to noveltunity to up my literary skills.

The lady posed for a photo in the 70's. You don't know her motivations or what is in her heart in 2019 any more than you know how to put on non-velcro shoes or mitigate your halitosis. I know you never did anything untoward in the 70s, so as a thought exercise in judgyness, why don't we take a poll and see who thinks contributes the most to society in 2019? Ms. Uncrurably Racist Associate Dean, or Mr. Pajamas in the Daytime Dialup Connection?

Get a job you fuckin slob.
 
TheTwinAndreBen said:
Maybe I should subscribe to noveltunity to up my literary skills.

The lady posed for a photo in the 70's. You don't know her motivations or what is in her heart in 2019 any more than you know how to put on non-velcro shoes or mitigate your halitosis. I know you never did anything untoward in the 70s, so as a thought exercise in judgyness, why don't we take a poll and see who thinks contributes the most to society in 2019? Ms. Uncrurably Racist Associate Dean, or Mr. Pajamas in the Daytime Dialup Connection?

Get a job you fuckin slob.
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Which is why I said she shouldn't be fired. I said a suspension or demotion would be in order for the actions and the weak ass apology.

But keep showing your lazy, uninformed ignorance about me. Sounds like projection and jealousy to attack me without ever having met me or knowing anything about me.

Keep showing yourself to be an asshole. It shows well.
 
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