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The ACC - 2018-19 Basketball

CharlotteDeac1 said:
Isn't what the plans for the Joel are basically very similar to what we did with the football stadium? Starting renovations? Obviously we can't do anything as big as the Deacon Tower for basketball but the right renovations can probably make it really close ideal - aside from being on campus that is.

Bottom line for me is that you win basketball games and people will show up whether the arena is exactly what you want it to be or not.
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This and it isn't as hard concept to grasp. There are decades of data to support this rationalization.
 
Of course having 3 future hall of famers on the floor would produce wins in a given year. That's a given. The question is how you get there and sustain it.

Is it --
1) An active, likeable coach?
2) A stadium with preferred student seating that is loud and enjoyable for fans/players?
3) An AD in touch with modern society?
4) Quality veteran assistants knowledgeable about the game?

The answer of course is simple: every one of them is important. We are at the bottom of the best league in the country. We cannot have liabilities. You don't just happen into winning in basketball, business or life.
It is the product of quality decisions recognizing that the little things are the big things. There is 0 downside to getting everything right and seeing if we can get the recipe right for a long term run like Duke did in the 80s and UVA did this decade.

Instead, we are building tennis facilities and investing in football.
 
donaldross said:
Your approach has certainly won the day at Wake. Many, many agree with you on this topic and have for decades.

And we've sucked for decades.
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The Joel that I remember(pre-redacted) was packed and a tough place for opponents to play. When we win, our students, alum and townies all show up. I don't understand how you can dismiss this.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
The Joel that I remember(pre-redacted) was packed and a tough place for opponents to play. When we win, our students, alum and townies all show up. I don't understand how you can dismiss this.
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Because I was there and it wasn't. I called it the worst stadium in the ACC in the 90s. It remains such.
 
donaldross said:
Because I was there and it wasn't. I called it the worst stadium in the ACC in the 90s. It remains such.
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Ok, there is a difference in stadium and atmosphere. Are you saying we have had the worst atmosphere in the ACC the last couple decades pre-redacted?

Because let's be real...Cameron is the worst stadium in the ACC, yet it is the best game day atmosphere.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Ok, there is a difference in stadium and atmosphere. Are you saying we have had the worst atmosphere in the ACC the last couple decades pre-redacted?

Because let's be real...Cameron is the worst stadium in the ACC, yet it is the best game day atmosphere.
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I am saying with the exception of a couple games a year it was not a good atmosphere. I was having this argument right here at the time. The stadium structure and size sucked from the atmosphere--even when we were averaging 10K fans. The best responses were "it's ok, and we had to settle for it."

As many can attest, I have lost this argument and Wake proceeded on their track -- we still are and it remains a losing one. As many can also attest, I am going nowhere on the issue. I will continue firing rockets until they bury me on the topic. It is insane that smart people at Duke understand this issue and smart people at Wake just miss it.
 
Just because you say these things doesn't make them accurate whatsoever. I seem to remember K and Roy saying the Joel was one of the hardest, if not the hardest, places to play in the country during the Skip/Gaudio years.
 
Or maybe the ACC? Can't remember exactly. God that was a long time ago.
 
Of course someone named Charlotte Deacs thinks that.

We were a really good basketball team with CP3 on the floor and hard to beat anywhere. That doesn't mean we had the best possible coach, the best possible stadium, the best possible crowd, the best possible 2 guard.

We didn't. We have just had two decent sets of teams led by two of the top 25 players to ever live neither of which could get us over the top with our other many liabilities.

We need to fix all of our liabilities rather than argue about which one of them is the most important.
 
I admire DR's tunnel vision on a new WF basketball arena with the goal of a Deacon knock-off of Cameron Indoor Stadium. DR's singular focus is the best way to achieve a goal. In the event that WF ultimately builds a small on campus arena, DR's constant (annoying) vision should get some credit.

All that said, while a new arena would help (or at least not hurt), a new small is arena is at best a small (very small) piece of building a program. Villanova, a small private college, plays almost all of their home games (all of their significant home games) at Wells Fargo Arena, in Philadelphia. They share Wells Fargo with the Flyers and Sixers. It's 24 miles from campus, and it seats 19,500. Not on campus. Not small. Pretty much the antithesis of everything that DR claims is a requirement for an elite program. But, Villanova proves its not.

OTOH, in 2016, GT completed a beautiful "state of the art" on campus arena, McCamish Pavilion. McCamish is "cozy, intimate and loud". McCamish checks all of DR's boxes.

If a "cozy, intimate and loud" on-campus arena, really is the critical factor in building a basketball power, how can it be that Villanova is on the top of college basketball (and poised to stay there for years) and GT basketball is wandering aimlessly (and the future continues to look bleak)?

The answer is that a small campus arena plays no direct role in building an elite program. You can have a craptastic program with a cozy intimate arena, and you can have a National Champion at a small private school playing in massive off-campus NBA arena. On the list of things that need to change for WF to rebuild its basketball program, building a Cameron knock-off is not and should not be high on the list (or really even on the list).

Also, DR's condescending tone about the rest of WF's athletic programs, particularly the football program, demonstrates that he is tone deaf about the current state of college athletics. Clueless.
 
donaldross said:
Yea, the gloves are most certainly off. I tried to be patient through a decade of horrific decisions. No more. Not causing a seen to fix this is squarely on us. It’s our team. Ron has to go.

I see after I called him out he somehow located that twitter password that had been missing for 6 months. Purely coincedental, I’m sure.
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rich enough to talk shit on a message board but not rich enough to effect meaningful change within the athletic department of the smallest Power 5 conference school in the country, and yet so full of creative and exciting fail-proof ideas

must be frustrating
 
Yes, you have heard me clearly. My target is you people. It is not only condescending--it is direct and real. We lose in men's basketball because of our own horrible decisions made by our alums. We have chosen football and El Paso over the Final Four.

It is a direct & very personal attack. I hope it effectuates change long term. In the meantime, Im looking forward to a successful 8 win football season and hearing Naz celebrate when the men's cross country team wins the ACC.

Cheers.
 
donaldross said:
Of course someone named Charlotte Deacs thinks that.

We were a really good basketball team with CP3 on the floor and hard to beat anywhere. That doesn't mean we had the best possible coach, the best possible stadium, the best possible crowd, the best possible 2 guard.

We didn't. We have just had two decent sets of teams led by two of the top 25 players to ever live neither of which could get us over the top with our other many liabilities.

We need to fix all of our liabilities rather than argue about which one of them is the most important.
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So when you have multiple important (and incredibly time and resource consuming) things to do, you don't prioritize them? I hope all you do is invest in businesses and not run them.

Pilchard said:
I admire DR's tunnel vision on a new WF basketball arena with the goal of a Deacon knock-off of Cameron Indoor Stadium. DR's singular focus is the best way to achieve a goal. In the event that WF ultimately builds a small on campus arena, DR's constant (annoying) vision should get some credit.

All that said, while a new arena would help (or at least not hurt), a new small is arena is at best a small (very small) piece of building a program. Villanova, a small private college, plays almost all of their home games (all of their significant home games) at Wells Fargo Arena, in Philadelphia. They share Wells Fargo with the Flyers and Sixers. It's 24 miles from campus, and it seats 19,500. Not on campus. Not small. Pretty much the antithesis of everything that DR claims is a requirement for an elite program. But, Villanova proves its not.

OTOH, in 2016, GT completed a beautiful "state of the art" on campus arena, McCamish Pavilion. McCamish is "cozy, intimate and loud". McCamish checks all of DR's boxes.

If a "cozy, intimate and loud" on-campus arena, really is the critical factor in building a basketball power, how can it be that Villanova is on the top of college basketball (and poised to stay there for years) and GT basketball is wandering aimlessly (and the future continues to look bleak)?

The answer is that a small campus arena plays no direct role in building an elite program. You can have a craptastic program with a cozy intimate arena, and you can have a National Champion at a small private school playing in massive off-campus NBA arena. On the list of things that need to change for WF to rebuild its basketball program, building a Cameron knock-off is not and should not be high on the list (or really even on the list).

Also, DR's condescending tone about the rest of WF's athletic programs, particularly the football program, demonstrates that he is tone deaf about the current state of college athletics. Clueless.
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All of this.

JuiceCrewAllStar said:
rich enough to talk shit on a message board but not rich enough to effect meaningful change within the athletic department of the smallest Power 5 conference school in the country, and yet so full of creative and exciting fail-proof ideas

must be frustrating
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And this. It's entertaining.
 
donaldross said:
Yes, you have heard me clearly. My target is you people. It is not only condescending--it is direct and real. We lose in men's basketball because of our own horrible decisions made by our alums. We have chosen football and El Paso over the Final Four.

It is a direct & very personal attack. I hope it effectuates change long term. In the meantime, Im looking forward to a successful 8 win football season and hearing Naz celebrate when the men's cross country team wins the ACC.

Cheers.
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Why do you keep saying El Paso.....??

Seems evident you think you have a lot greater an influence on people than you actually do.
 
donaldross said:
I would say we averaged about 4000 this year among the bottom 10 home games. We had 2500 for the Georgia Tech. I took a pic from the top at tip. Wish I knew how to post it. Abysmal.

If we double our attendance (we won’t), it would still look abysmal.

But what do I know? I want to win in men’s basketball. I’m clearly in the minority. Majority of Wake alums like chasing Olympic sport titles. Wrestling, hunting and such. Or whatever it was. Riveting.
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I can't prove it but I believe these are outrageous exaggerations. The crazy thing is that your exaggerations and mis-characterizations cause people that basically agree with you to have to argue with you.

I agree that our attendance and atmosphere has sucked - but we haven't had a game with only 2500 people in attendance.

You are not in the minority of fans wanting to win at basketball - not by a longshot. Others just have differing opinions as to what changes should be prioritized in reaching that goal.

Mocking national championships in golf and tennis is no way to further your agenda. Sure those sports are not flagships of the athletic department but they are amazing accomplishments in their own right and prove that investment can pay off. Both show the importance of facilities and, for tennis especially, hiring the right coach.
 
CharlotteDeac1 said:
Obviously we can't do anything as big as the Deacon Tower for basketball but the right renovations can probably make it really close ideal - aside from being on campus that is.
Click to expand...

Just throw that sucker on the back of an 18 wheeler flatbed and haul it up the street a short ways. Never understood why this simple solution has always eluded us.
 
I was ecstatic as hell to be part of a Wake debate national championship. No fans were there. Very little cared. I give the tennis guys a great deal of credit for their accomplishment.

Where I am not ok is when they lump that in an article with our new basketball practice facilities. They aren't related and pretending that has any impact or justification for not dumping Manning right now & making wholesale hoops changes is silly. That is what I am mocking.
 
Two anecdotes I've shared before about the Joel:

JJ Redick said, on ESPN during one of the SportCenter puff-pieces about him, that the Joel was the toughest/his least favorite place to play in the country - that was also back when the Duke-Maryland rivalry was hot (they chanted they fucked his sister).

A UK grad and his son accompanied me and my dad to the UNC game at the Joel in early 2006 when they were #2 and we were #3. They go to Rupp all the time and have traveled the country to watch UK play (as well as other teams). They stated that that game was the best college basketball atmosphere they'd ever experienced.

When Wake is good, the Joel is an awesome place to watch college basketball. I do agree that the overall college basketball product, other than the NCAA tournament, is trending down in a big way.
 
Pilchard said:
I admire DR's tunnel vision on a new WF basketball arena with the goal of a Deacon knock-off of Cameron Indoor Stadium. DR's singular focus is the best way to achieve a goal. In the event that WF ultimately builds a small on campus arena, DR's constant (annoying) vision should get some credit.

All that said, while a new arena would help (or at least not hurt), a new small is arena is at best a small (very small) piece of building a program. Villanova, a small private college, plays almost all of their home games (all of their significant home games) at Wells Fargo Arena, in Philadelphia. They share Wells Fargo with the Flyers and Sixers. It's 24 miles from campus, and it seats 19,500. Not on campus. Not small. Pretty much the antithesis of everything that DR claims is a requirement for an elite program. But, Villanova proves its not.

OTOH, in 2016, GT completed a beautiful "state of the art" on campus arena, McCamish Pavilion. McCamish is "cozy, intimate and loud". McCamish checks all of DR's boxes.

If a "cozy, intimate and loud" on-campus arena, really is the critical factor in building a basketball power, how can it be that Villanova is on the top of college basketball (and poised to stay there for years) and GT basketball is wandering aimlessly (and the future continues to look bleak)?

The answer is that a small campus arena plays no direct role in building an elite program. You can have a craptastic program with a cozy intimate arena, and you can have a National Champion at a small private school playing in massive off-campus NBA arena. On the list of things that need to change for WF to rebuild its basketball program, building a Cameron knock-off is not and should not be high on the list (or really even on the list).

Also, DR's condescending tone about the rest of WF's athletic programs, particularly the football program, demonstrates that he is tone deaf about the current state of college athletics. Clueless.
Click to expand...

Point/set/match
 
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