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The Audacity of Hopelessness

Agreed. Although I think there are segments who are way overplaying all the reasons, besides the candidate herself, that Hillary lost. I'd be surprised if Russia was the only government trying to influence how people here think. And obviously as a nation we would want to minimize those influences.

But, at the end of the day Clinton hung herself with her own rope - lots and lots of it. Refusing to acknowledge this as the primary issue - which is what some around the nation are doing - is just an indirect way of accusing voters of being stupid. And that, IMO, is not a good strategy.

I agree with this. I just want JHMD to either put up or shut up when it comes to people on here doing that.

He continues to bring it up in thread after thread and I just don't see who it is aimed at other than him fighting imaginary people in his head.
 
I haven't read the thread on Russian interference but I'm going to make conclusions based on it anyway

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Yes, the conclusion that a thread on Russian interference may include opinions on Russian interference. Of course on these Boards that may be a bit of reach given how threads about cheese spread can quickly turn into finger pointing exercises about whether crop circles are caused by Aliens.
 
Yes, the conclusion that a thread on Russian interference may include opinions on Russian interference. Of course on these Boards that may be a bit of reach given how threads about cheese spread can quickly turn into finger pointing exercises about whether crop circles are caused by Aliens.

illegal or legal
 
Yes, the conclusion that a thread on Russian interference may include opinions on Russian interference. Of course on these Boards that may be a bit of reach given how threads about cheese spread can quickly turn into finger pointing exercises about whether crop circles are caused by Aliens.

EVERY US intelligence agency has said there was direct Russian interference in our election and it was led directly by Putin. It's not in dispute by the people who know. Even McConnell and Ryan have set-up committees because of this. None of these experts are enough for you.

Was this THE reason Hillary lost? No, but it did have impact. It was on the news nearly every day.

She was a terrible candidate. She made a ton of mistakes, but the unprecedented actions by a foreign leader and his government apparatus did impact our election.

This is like your statement that Trump isn't beholden to donors, yet as avalon showed, so far 6 people who donated a total of $12M have been appointed to major positions in the Trump Administration:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ampaign-and-the-party/?utm_term=.0bda9e9c09c5

So, yes, Trump has definitively proven he is beholden to donors and has started paying them back.
 
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I think you forget JHMD was the first tunnels bot, way before Bob2 came along. Basically pick a few ambiguous things, apply to and bring up on all threads, repeat infinite number of times.
 
Yeah, all it did was change who got elected.

No, it didn't. White women and Obama coalition voters abstaining from voting for president likely explains most of the change that got Trump elected. Y'all have yet to produce the numbers, but there aren't that many Obama -> Trump voters out there.
 
Because every board needs a 37 page thread (and counting) on an issue that no one is talking about. Makes perfect sense.

The Benghazi thread that you posted on a lot dwarfs all of the Russia threads combined.
 
I have no idea what you are talking about. No one here needs to read a 37 page thread on Russian election interference if they want to state their opinion on Russian election interference. And, to my knowledge, I have not been an active participant in said thread. So what basis in relaity you wish to refer to is very unclear and likely irrelevant.

Meh

So, what. You just want folks to concede that Reagan had it worse? Is that really your end game?

And, for the record, didn't the counties that flipped all register lower voter turnout? Is there proof that Obama voters voted from Trump in numbers large enough to swing the election? In my analysis, this is an election characterized by low voter turnout, especially amongst the Obama coalition and white women voting in significant numbers for Trump.
 
No, it didn't. White women and Obama coalition voters abstaining from voting for president likely explains most of the change that got Trump elected. Y'all have yet to produce the numbers, but there aren't that many Obama -> Trump voters out there.

Pretty sure it's both--Obama blue collar voters who switched to Trump and loyal Obama voters who stayed home.
 
Meh

So, what. You just want folks to concede that Reagan had it worse? Is that really your end game?

And, for the record, didn't the counties that flipped all register lower voter turnout? Is there proof that Obama voters voted from Trump in numbers large enough to swing the election? In my analysis, this is an election characterized by low voter turnout, especially amongst the Obama coalition and white women voting in significant numbers for Trump.

Nah. My end game is much more about getting people to see the bigger picture. Whether Obama or Reagan or Clinton or Bush II had it the worst in terms of hyperbolic vitriol is pretty irrelevant. Ultimately all those politicians are judged by broader society for their performance. And crying about Obama being treated unfairly is pointless. The guy entered office on a big wave of popularity and he is leaving office with a solid approval rating. How his legacy ultimately get's written remains to be seen. But the guy was generally liked.

As for voter turnout, Ph or someone else tried to make the same claim a couple of weeks ago. The idea of lower voter turnout doesn't hold water at least in rural or ex-urban counties. For starters it simply was not universally true. There were counties where turnout was up, counties where it was level and counties where it was down. And even where you saw some lower turnout, that did not nearly enough explain Clinton's lower vote take relative to Obama's. We're talking 10, 15, 20 and even larger percentage point drops.

Further, even if you want to claim it was because of low turnout, whose fault is it? Don't the candidates need to give voters a reason to get up off their ass and vote? When you don't vote you are still making a statement.
 
I agree with this. I just want JHMD to either put up or shut up when it comes to people on here doing that.

He continues to bring it up in thread after thread and I just don't see who it is aimed at other than him fighting imaginary people in his head.

So good. So very, very good. Hurt feelings are hurt. 5 stars. Would read again.
 
No, it didn't. White women and Obama coalition voters abstaining from voting for president likely explains most of the change that got Trump elected. Y'all have yet to produce the numbers, but there aren't that many Obama -> Trump voters out there.

I think there was more than a little crossover going both ways. Most of the Pub folks I know voted Trump but a few establishment types did vote for Clinton. Similarly, I think there was some crossover from former Obama voters to Trump - folks who went for his populist message, especially in the Rust Belt. Just look at the Bobs. Which crossover was greater I don't know, but I bet it varied significantly by state - more crossover for Trump in the Rust Belt and more for Clinton in states like GA and TX.

But yes, the bigger issue for Clinton was younger folks and African Americans staying home. In 2008, Obama at the end of the day was able to seal the deal with the PUMAs. Clinton was unable to do the same thing to the same extent with disaffected more pro Bernie young folks this year, as evidenced by the light turnout.
 
So good. So very, very good. Hurt feelings are hurt. 5 stars. Would read again.

Alright, so you have no posts to back up your position. Not shocking given that's the age we are in. You have a feeling about something so you project and defend that feeling, regardless of the reality you are actually living in.

Good stuff. Troll on my man. Keep fighting those demons.
 
Nah. My end game is much more about getting people to see the bigger picture. Whether Obama or Reagan or Clinton or Bush II had it the worst in terms of hyperbolic vitriol is pretty irrelevant. Ultimately all those politicians are judged by broader society for their performance. And crying about Obama being treated unfairly is pointless. The guy entered office on a big wave of popularity and he is leaving office with a solid approval rating. How his legacy ultimately get's written remains to be seen. But the guy was generally liked.

I think people are just trying to argue this point. You keep referring to approval ratings, which I think lots of other folks find fairly irrelevant.
 
Nah. My end game is much more about getting people to see the bigger picture. Whether Obama or Reagan or Clinton or Bush II had it the worst in terms of hyperbolic vitriol is pretty irrelevant. Ultimately all those politicians are judged by broader society for their performance. And crying about Obama being treated unfairly is pointless. The guy entered office on a big wave of popularity and he is leaving office with a solid approval rating. How his legacy ultimately get's written remains to be seen. But the guy was generally liked.

As for voter turnout, Ph or someone else tried to make the same claim a couple of weeks ago. The idea of lower voter turnout doesn't hold water at least in rural or ex-urban counties. For starters it simply was not universally true. There were counties where turnout was up, counties where it was level and counties where it was down. And even where you saw some lower turnout, that did not nearly enough explain Clinton's lower vote take relative to Obama's. We're talking 10, 15, 20 and even larger percentage point drops.

Further, even if you want to claim it was because of low turnout, whose fault is it? Don't the candidates need to give voters a reason to get up off their ass and vote? When you don't vote you are still making a statement.

If you're right, then surely you have data.

Republican voting patterns stayed more or less the same from 2012 with white women voting for Trump more and Obama coalition voters voting less overall. You're basing your analysis off of recollection, anecdotes, and speculation. You haven't done the work.

My claim is that in terms of the aggregate counts per state that went blue in 2012 and red in 2016, voter turnout was down significantly amongst Obama coalition voters and in Obama coalition areas, whereas white women (primarily suburban, or as you put it, exurban) voted in larger than anticipated numbers for Trump.

I'm not sure where you're getting numbers like 10-20 percentage point drops or what they refer to, but when we're talking about state aggregate figures, which influence electoral vote allocation, then significant drops in urban area voter turnout absolutely affects national election outcomes. I've posted about this in depth on here prior to your return to the boards. Your move.

You're right and I agree with your last paragraph, though. It's Clinton's and the DNC's fault 100%+ for losing this election. Had you paid attention to the boards during the election you might be able to paint with a less broad brush in describing who folks attribute blame to on the boards.
 
No, it didn't. White women and Obama coalition voters abstaining from voting for president likely explains most of the change that got Trump elected. Y'all have yet to produce the numbers, but there aren't that many Obama -> Trump voters out there.

OK. Yet again. This time from a different source than the one posted a page or so back. Here are counties that flipped from Obama to Trump and from Romney to Clinton. This does not take into account the massive number of counties that did not flip but where Clinton's percentage take dropped from the take Obama took. And if you wish to continue to argue that Clinton voters stayed home, you should be asking yourself "why"?

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/15/502032052/lots-of-people-voted-for-obama-and-trump-heres-where-in-3-charts
 
Alright, so you have no posts to back up your position. Not shocking given that's the age we are in. You have a feeling about something so you project and defend that feeling, regardless of the reality you are actually living in.

Good stuff. Troll on my man. Keep fighting those demons.

Pretty sure if you spend hours combing through dozens of pages you'll see JHMD is correct. My guess is JHMD doesn't care enough to bother but you sound like you do. Good luck getting to the bottom of it.
 
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