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The Democratic Party Left Me Behind

fair enough, though as late as yesterday, MDMH and Juice (i think) claimed out that incremental changes are unlikely to prove fruitful
 
ImTheCaptain said:
fair enough, though as late as yesterday, MDMH and Juice claimed out that incremental changes are unlikely to prove fruitful
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I don't know about their opinions, or the specific posts you are referencing, but I would differentiate the "incrementalism" that I've seen mdmh speak against regarding liberalism from a socialist perspective that we can implement reforms that materially improve the lives of people while at the same time working towards democratic control of the means of production.

For me, that means advancing non-reformist reforms.

The notion of non-reformist reforms, although conceptually far older than its articulation, was first concretely formulated by Andre Gorz, a French Socialist...[Gorz] posed the formulation as a means to bridge our short-term engagements for social justice in everyday life to our longer-term vision for an anti-capitalist world. The formulation centers on waging struggle for demands and reforms that improve conditions in people’s immediate lives, but which don’t strengthen the capitalist system, but instead subvert its logic, upend its social relations, and dilute its strength.

These reforms seek to create new logics, new relations, and new imperatives that create a new equilibrium and balance of forces to weaken capitalism and enable the development of an anti-capitalist alternative.”
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MHBDemon said:
link? Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

Democratic socialism is a political philosophy that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production[1] with an emphasis on self-management and democratic management of economic institutions within a market socialist, participatory or decentralized planned economy.[2] Democratic socialists hold that capitalism is inherently incompatible with what they hold to be the democratic values of liberty, equality and solidarity; and that these ideals can only be achieved through the realization of a socialist society. Democratic socialism can be supportive of either revolutionary or reformist politics as a means to establish socialism.[3]

The term "democratic socialism" is sometimes used synonymously with "socialism", but the adjective "democratic" is sometimes used to distinguish democratic socialists from Marxist–Leninist-inspired socialism which is viewed as being non-democratic in practice.[4][5] Democratic socialists oppose the Stalinist political system and Soviet economic model, rejecting the authoritarian form of governance and highly centralized command economy that took form in the Soviet Union in the early 20th century.[6]

Democratic socialism is further distinguished from social democracy on the basis that democratic socialists are committed to systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism, whereas social democracy is supportive of reforms to capitalism.[7] In contrast to social democrats, democratic socialists believe that reforms aimed at addressing social inequalities and state interventions aimed at suppressing the economic contradictions of capitalism will only see them emerge elsewhere in a different guise. As socialists, democratic socialists believe that the systemic issues of capitalism can only be solved by replacing the capitalist system with a socialist system—i.e. by replacing private ownership with social ownership of the means of production.[3][8]
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WFcatamount22 said:
The problem with our current version of capitalism is that not everyone has the same availability to become economically successful. This is due to things like institutionalized racism, and corporations rigging the systems to prevent people from fair economic opportunities in a free market. The answer to that is to use the government to regulate the marketplace in order to ensure everyone regardless of creed, class, or color has equal opportunities to succeed in a capitalistic model.

What the government should not be used for is to create a system where the state is forcing equality of economic outcomes, which is what seems to be the democratic socialist platform.
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First paragraph is correct.

Not sure where you get the idea of the second.
 
RJKarl said:
You said you had a plan to end capitalism, but have refused to show it.
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I just read through most all of this thread and could not find where I said I had a plan. Do you have a plan for fixing capitalism? Do you have a plan for ensuring the Democratic Party looks out for the interests of the poor and working class?
 
MHBDemon said:
I just read through most all of this thread and could not find where I said I had a plan. Do you have a plan for fixing capitalism? Do you have a plan for ensuring the Democratic Party looks out for the interests of the poor and working class?
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"MHBDemon MHBDemon is online now
Broderick Hicks

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Quote Originally Posted by ImTheCaptain View Post
interesting - what are the concrete steps to revolutionize the world's largest and most complex economy again?
Interesting that in order to criticize something that is pretty clearly not socialism, and a transparent attempt to rehabilitate the billionaire class, that I have to have a neat little answer packaged for you outlining my 5 step plan for revolution.
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ImTheCaptain said:
what's the difference between "economic justice" and "equality of outcomes"
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Economic justice is what catamount was talking about in the first paragraph.

Equality of outcomes is everyone having the same outcome.
 
ImTheCaptain said:
fair enough, though as late as yesterday, MDMH and Juice (i think) claimed out that incremental changes are unlikely to prove fruitful
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The word "unlikely" implies that we havent yet tried incrementalism, and don't yet know if it works. Despite my strident efforts to bring you to reality, I don't think you're ever going to acknowledge the current depth of injustice and hardship in this country. Its all hyperbolic because some poor Americans have flat screen tvs and doritos.

Your incrementalism is making things worse. I'm not complaining that you arent moving fast enough. I'm complaining that your constant capitulation to a privileged and overrepresented fringe of "moderates" is making things worse.
 
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“Depth of injustice and hardship” seems all relative. Do those pushing the equality platform in this country struggle with the idea that this depth of injustice and hardship is on a gradient, that their miserable lives are a shiny beacon of hope and prosperity to billions of others who would do anything to have it? How do you rectify your equality with the idea that it simply occurred by random chance and random borders? Is there a plan to spread this equality and fairness worldwide and if so seems like you are going to need that massive military industrial complex.
 
Louis Gossett Jr said:
“Depth of injustice and hardship” seems all relative. Do those pushing the equality platform in this country struggle with the idea that this depth of injustice and hardship is on a gradient, that their miserable lives are a shiny beacon of hope and prosperity to billions of others who would do anything to have it? How do you rectify your equality with the idea that it simply occurred by random chance and random borders? Is there a plan to spread this equality and fairness worldwide and if so seems like you are going to need that massive military industrial complex.
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This is a pretty ahistorical take that assumes everything is just random rather than the result of colonialism and imperialism. Do you think the military industrial complex functions to spread equaility and fairness?
 
Big sympathy for Laos for all the random bombing, but we have to keep voting for higher defense budgets in order to spread fairness and equality.

From 1964 to 1973, the U.S. dropped more than two million tons of ordnance on Laos during 580,000 bombing missions—equal to a planeload of bombs every 8 minutes, 24-hours a day, for 9 years – making Laos the most heavily bombed country per capita in history.
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Junebug said:
Sounds like the story of your life.

Also, “multitasking”? What other tasks do you do? Oh, do you mean posting on other threads?
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If I'm not mistaken, Junebug is allegedly a lawyer. This shows why he should never be hired as one. What's asinine is being arrogant about a specific situation that you know nothing about and acting like you do. You don't have a clue about what RJ is multitasking or how he multitasks. However, your inflated self-delusions won't allow you to admit this.
 
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