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The New Socialists

06deacon said:
Dumping on RJ is not “being awful to each other.” Objecting to his posting style is the original bipartisan position here.
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Wait a second...you took my post seriously? That is what "dumping on RJ" would infer.
 
DDA said:
So no then. You can’t do it.

Where’s WnB when you need him?

I don’t hate you, those are your words. I do think that traditional conservatives/republicans and trumpism are one in the same now. Look at the percentage of republicans that support him (90+%). Republicans are traditionally conservative. Where am I wrong?

The above question is asked in good faith as requested.
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I do think that you asked that in good faith. I agree that a large portion of the Republican party supports Trump. I would suspect that it stemmed from Trump being the antithesis of a perceived culture of overbearing political correctness on the left. That leaves the rest of the traditional conservatives in quite a dilemma with Trump. They don't like him. In fact, some detest him. The 2020 Democratic candidates still have little policy that those folks readily get behind. So, it becomes a weird scale with the dislike of Donald Trump, and all the comes with him, on one side and a more traditionally "presidential" candidate on the left whose policy you don't support whatsoever on the other. Whether they like it or not, Trump is the figurehead of the Republican party at the moment. He is the mouthpiece. I could be very wrong, but I think that the "trumpism" movement will fade to the shadows when he's out of office.

We are in strange times. Europe is dealing with similar political polarization and the response there with Brexit and Boris Johnson, etc. make me think it's not a uniquely American phenomenon. The discourse, or lack thereof, drives a wedge father between everyone and bad actors (and actions) galvanize each side. Personally, I don't hate anyone on the left or the right. I understand why they feel the way they do and why they support their preferred policy. I recognize that people have different experiences and upbringing than me and their worldview has been shaped by that. And that's ok. We need a difference of opinion. A completely homogeneous political society is bad for America.

I think this gets fixed when we all, at a grassroots level, extend an olive branch, stop assuming bad faith from everyone on the "other side," and recognize that our opinions, no matter how deeply held, can be ill-conceived.
 
RJKarl said:
Wait a second...you took my post seriously? That is what "dumping on RJ" would infer.
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No, all I meant was that both left wing and right wing posters go on multi page arguments with you.
 
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Agree to disagree on “trumpism” fading when he leaves office. Donald is a symptom of the issue not the cause. He was a natural progression from the tea party movement that swept the nation the last decade (where 30-40 percent of republicans identified themselves as tea partiers during Obama’s re-election year). Why would the GOP go right back to “small government” reasonable conservative politicians given the next chance when an anti-Democrat rhetoric without any realistic substantive policy easily took down the GOP primary, had widespread support in the south and Midwest, and that politician still retains 90 percent support amongst all self-identified republicans?

What evidence do we have that this will subside at all?
 
DG3 said:
I do think that you asked that in good faith. I agree that a large portion of the Republican party supports Trump. I would suspect that it stemmed from Trump being the antithesis of a perceived culture of overbearing political correctness on the left. That leaves the rest of the traditional conservatives in quite a dilemma with Trump. They don't like him. In fact, some detest him. The 2020 Democratic candidates still have little policy that those folks readily get behind. So, it becomes a weird scale with the dislike of Donald Trump, and all the comes with him, on one side and a more traditionally "presidential" candidate on the left whose policy you don't support whatsoever on the other. Whether they like it or not, Trump is the figurehead of the Republican party at the moment. He is the mouthpiece. I could be very wrong, but I think that the "trumpism" movement will fade to the shadows when he's out of office.

We are in strange times. Europe is dealing with similar political polarization and the response there with Brexit and Boris Johnson, etc. make me think it's not a uniquely American phenomenon. The discourse, or lack thereof, drives a wedge father between everyone and bad actors (and actions) galvanize each side. Personally, I don't hate anyone on the left or the right. I understand why they feel the way they do and why they support their preferred policy. I recognize that people have different experiences and upbringing than me and their worldview has been shaped by that. And that's ok. We need a difference of opinion. A completely homogeneous political society is bad for America.

I think this gets fixed when we all, at a grassroots level, extend an olive branch, stop assuming bad faith from everyone on the "other side," and recognize that our opinions, no matter how deeply held, can be ill-conceived.
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Fine.

I won’t assume bad faith on your part. You are probably not bad.

However, the Republican Party as it is today on the national and many local levels is operating nearly exclusively in bad faith and this is not just trump. The Senate is a disgrace, probably moreso than Trump as they could rein in most of his shit if they chose. They are doing the opposite. Why, if it’s truly just a trumpist movement they’re waiting out.

It is certainly possible that not all Republican Party actions are bad but pick nearly any major policy issue and see if you agree with where the party currently stands. Also compare what they say with what they’re actually doing. It often doesn’t line up. Lying. Bad faith.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Agree to disagree on �trumpism� fading when he leaves office. Donald is a symptom of the issue not the cause. He was a natural progression from the tea party movement that swept the nation the last decade (where 30-40 percent of republicans identified themselves as tea partiers during Obama�s re-election year). Why would the GOP go right back to �small government� reasonable conservative politicians given the next chance when an anti-Democrat rhetoric without any realistic substantive policy easily took down the GOP primary, had widespread support in the south and Midwest, and that politician still retains 90 percent support amongst all self-identified republicans?

What evidence do we have that this will subside at all?
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He has that support, in my opinion, because he's the next guy up with an R beside his name. And I agree that he's been a shitty one. The RNC knows that. You may hate them, but they aren't idiots. I think that after the great 2024 showdown between Dan Crenshaw and Pete Buttigieg, you'll see a return to civility. At least I hope.
 
They are taking advantage of both the voting population’s apathy and also people’s tendencies to assume good faith efforts from their governing bodies.

Don’t watch Trump. He’s as obvious as a missing limb. Watch the senate. They’re the pancreatic cancer you never see coming.
 
Trump is a stupid flailing asshole but at the end of the day he is an empty suit. He has no ideas or policies. That empty suit is filled with Republicans. Probably a few of them since he’s such a fat shit.
 
06deacon said:
Fine.

I won’t assume bad faith on your part. You are probably not bad.

However, the Republican Party as it is today on the national and many local levels is operating nearly exclusively in bad faith and this is not just trump. The Senate is a disgrace, probably moreso than Trump as they could rein in most of his shit if they chose. They are doing the opposite. Why, if it’s truly just a trumpist movement they’re waiting out.

It is certainly possible that not all Republican Party actions are bad but pick nearly any major policy issue and see if you agree with where the party currently stands. Also compare what they say with what they’re actually doing. It often doesn’t line up. Lying. Bad faith.
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I absolutely understand why you feel that way. I really do. But, this is your worldview. Granted many here share that, but it doesn't make it necessarily correct. Conservatives would say some version of the same about the left. They, too, can be quite misguided in their convictions.
 
I mean that's the difference. Democrats may be misguided in their convictions but the GOP isn't even pretending to stand by what they've claimed their convictions were for the last half century.

The only conviction most conservatives have at this point is "cut off your nose to own the libs." Hell look no further than the current health care "debate." On the left the disagreement is one of policy - M4A, how to work in the private insurance sector (if at all), and to what degree there should be an increased government hand in the insurance game. The conservative position is "repeal and replace Obamacare." Not only can they not get Obamacare repealed, they've admitted they don't know what they'd replace it with if they even were able to repeal it. It's comical.
 
WFcatamount22 said:
I don’t think Trump is a racist.

I think he is a sociopathic opportunist. Someone that is ready to pray on others senses of racial biases and beliefs for his own opportunistic gains, someone that is ready to divide the nation over deep seeded hatred and I’ll will for financial and personal gains.

For the record I think it’s worse.
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That's a good chunk of the GOP, since Lee Atwater at least. What sets Trump apart is that he is actually dumb enough to believe the racially tinged propoganda that most others just wink and nod at. That does make him a racist. He's not a white supremacist in the same sense Steve King is because he could not compose a manifesto detailing his racist beliefs (or a manifesto about anything, really), but there's more to it that working the crowds at his rallies. People say he's better at taking advantage of people's prejudices, but what he has really show is that doing so doesn't really take any skill at all-you can just say the quiet parts loud.

Also, this from years ago
iu2
 
There’s really no excuse for the current GOP after the Atwater explanation he was a chief strategist for Reagan and he specifically explained that modern conservative thought came about as a way to punish black people without explicitly saying “nigger, nigger, nigger.”
 
DG3 said:
I do think that you asked that in good faith. I agree that a large portion of the Republican party supports Trump. I would suspect that it stemmed from Trump being the antithesis of a perceived culture of overbearing political correctness on the left. That leaves the rest of the traditional conservatives in quite a dilemma with Trump. They don't like him. In fact, some detest him. The 2020 Democratic candidates still have little policy that those folks readily get behind. So, it becomes a weird scale with the dislike of Donald Trump, and all the comes with him, on one side and a more traditionally "presidential" candidate on the left whose policy you don't support whatsoever on the other. Whether they like it or not, Trump is the figurehead of the Republican party at the moment. He is the mouthpiece. I could be very wrong, but I think that the "trumpism" movement will fade to the shadows when he's out of office.

We are in strange times. Europe is dealing with similar political polarization and the response there with Brexit and Boris Johnson, etc. make me think it's not a uniquely American phenomenon. The discourse, or lack thereof, drives a wedge father between everyone and bad actors (and actions) galvanize each side. Personally, I don't hate anyone on the left or the right. I understand why they feel the way they do and why they support their preferred policy. I recognize that people have different experiences and upbringing than me and their worldview has been shaped by that. And that's ok. We need a difference of opinion. A completely homogeneous political society is bad for America.

I think this gets fixed when we all, at a grassroots level, extend an olive branch, stop assuming bad faith from everyone on the "other side," and recognize that our opinions, no matter how deeply held, can be ill-conceived.
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Thanks for the response.

“Stemming from political correctness from the left.” I’d argue that trump is the manifestation of all the fear mongering and phony nationalism that right wing media, that politicians like Cruz and the rest of the tea party, has pushed to gain power. It’s been a tidal wave of pearl clutching that they couldn’t stop in the 2016 primaries and trump was the result. Remember when McConnell and Ryan were anti trump until it became politically expedient? It was years and years of Fox News and the like that convinced conservatives and even a lot of center-right folks that things like “being kind” was terrible (political correctness), the left is coming to take your guns, and Democrats are akin to the enemy. The reality is, IMO, the right created this problem. Sure, the Left has some culpability, but not nearly as much as the 10% of conservatives who are never Trumpers like to think to make themselves feel better. The only way out of this mess is vote Dem at the senate level and have a semi competent Dem candidate to run against trump.
 
"Political correctness from the left" was a response to the rise of what we're seeing now from the right.

And keep in mind the right has been calling for "civility" anytime Democrats didn't hold their speech.
 
PhDeac said:
"Political correctness from the left" was a response to the rise of what we're seeing now from the right.

And keep in mind the right has been calling for "civility" anytime Democrats didn't hold their speech.
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I don’t see conservatives dropping the N-bomb casually in other threads.
 
DG3 said:
I do think that you asked that in good faith. I agree that a large portion of the Republican party supports Trump. I would suspect that it stemmed from Trump being the antithesis of a perceived culture of overbearing political correctness on the left. That leaves the rest of the traditional conservatives in quite a dilemma with Trump. They don't like him. In fact, some detest him. The 2020 Democratic candidates still have little policy that those folks readily get behind. So, it becomes a weird scale with the dislike of Donald Trump, and all the comes with him, on one side and a more traditionally "presidential" candidate on the left whose policy you don't support whatsoever on the other. Whether they like it or not, Trump is the figurehead of the Republican party at the moment. He is the mouthpiece. I could be very wrong, but I think that the "trumpism" movement will fade to the shadows when he's out of office.

We are in strange times. Europe is dealing with similar political polarization and the response there with Brexit and Boris Johnson, etc. make me think it's not a uniquely American phenomenon. The discourse, or lack thereof, drives a wedge father between everyone and bad actors (and actions) galvanize each side. Personally, I don't hate anyone on the left or the right. I understand why they feel the way they do and why they support their preferred policy. I recognize that people have different experiences and upbringing than me and their worldview has been shaped by that. And that's ok. We need a difference of opinion. A completely homogeneous political society is bad for America.

I think this gets fixed when we all, at a grassroots level, extend an olive branch, stop assuming bad faith from everyone on the "other side," and recognize that our opinions, no matter how deeply held, can be ill-conceived.
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The above quote is very good IMO. I think I represent a large percentage of Republicans, at least in the Christian World View camp. We cannot stand most of what President Trump says. We like some things he does. But there is no other option. I wish there were 4-5 strong political parties, because we can't vote for any Democrat. Infanticide is repulsive (I am not trying to start a debate here, just stating reality from our World View); any form of socialism does not help people, poor or rich (again, you may disagree, which is fine, but this is the position of most of us); we love people, but don't try to force us to support things we think are morally wrong. We will never support these positions which the Democratic Party seems to have taken. This leave us with President Trump. Unless something changes, we will hold our nose and try not to vomit as we vote for Trump.
 
Democrats aren't forcing you to support things you think are morally wrong. It's the exact opposite. Democrats don't want you to force your morals on other people.

Welcome to the boards.
 
but there aren't 4-5 parties, there are two and you support the one doing abhorrent things to human beings and the planet
 
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