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Wake and A D

inspectah said:
Can you list the 14 nattys? I'm trying to count them and am coming up short of 14. I know probably half of them were in field hockey.
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1996 Andy Bloom Shot Put
1996 Andy Bloom Discus
2002 Bea Bielik Tennis
2002 Team Field Hockey
2003 Team Field Hockey
2004 Team Field Hockey
2007 Team Soccer
2007 Michelle Sikes 5000m Indoor
2007 Michelle Sikes 5000m Outdoor
2008 Cory Parr/Steve Forman Tennis, doubles
2009 Michael Bingham 400m Indoor
2016 Petros Chrysochos Tennis
2016 Skander Mansouri/Christian Seraphim Tennis, doubles
2017 Skander Mansouri/Petros Chrysochos Tennis, doubles
 
Rafi said:
1996 Andy Bloom Shot Put
1996 Andy Bloom Discus
2002 Bea Bielik Tennis
2002 Team Field Hockey
2003 Team Field Hockey
2004 Team Field Hockey
2007 Team Soccer
2007 Michelle Sikes 5000m Indoor
2007 Michelle Sikes 5000m Outdoor
2008 Cory Parr/Steve Forman Tennis, doubles
2009 Michael Bingham 400m Indoor
2016 Petros Chrysochos Tennis
2016 Skander Mansouri/Christian Seraphim Tennis, doubles
2017 Skander Mansouri/Petros Chrysochos Tennis, doubles
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All hail King Wellman!!
 
Here are our other national championships:

Hooks
1974 Team Golf
1974 Curtis Strange Golf
1975 Team Golf
1975 Jay Haas Golf
1979 Gary Hallberg Golf
1986 Team Golf

Gibson
1955 Team Baseball

Weaver
1949 Arnold Palmer Golf
1950 Arnold Palmer Golf
[these are debated as they represent the low player in the team competition]
 
As meaningful as these are, the only one that even registers on the national level is the soccer NC and that one barely means anything to anyone other than the biggest fans. Basketball is the schools flagship program and Wellman has absolutely destroyed it and them taunted the people who actually care about it with quotes like Oh, heavens, yes. No one but family, participants and the most committed alumni care about Olympic sports. It is absurd to laud Wellman for the success in these areas while the basketball program is and has been for eight years an out of control dumpster fire.
 
Here are our ACC championships in basketball and football:

Wellman
1994 Basketball
1995 Basketball
2006 Football

Hooks
1970 Football

Gibson
1961 Basketball
1962 Basketball
 
lbdeac94 said:
As meaningful as these are, the only one that even registers on the national level is the soccer NC and that one barely means anything to anyone other than the biggest fans. Basketball is the schools flagship program and Wellman has absolutely destroyed it and them taunted the people who actually care about it with quotes like Oh, heavens, yes. No one but family, participants and the most committed alumni care about Olympic sports. It is absurd to laud Wellman for the success in these areas while the basketball program is and has been for eight years an out of control dumpster fire.
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Other than national championships and ACC championships in basketball and football, what stat would you like to use to compare Wake ADs to each other?
 
Yeah, Andy Bloom chucking the shot put far had so much to do with Ron Wellman.

giggle
 
I am not comparing Wellman to anyone, other than someone who performs their job and he has not for eight years in regards to our basketball program. Basketball defines Wake or at least it used to. I live outside Chicago. Talked to an Ohio St grad at church today and he asked where I went to school . He said Wake oh a basketball school. Seemed almost laughable to me to hear it, given the state of the program. Most people remember who we were, not where we are now. Ron Wellman is directly responsible for the state of the program and I personally would trade 100 national championships in the sports you defined above to make one final four and go back to the expectation of making the tourney every year.
 
Ayo said:
Yeah, Andy Bloom chucking the shot put far had so much to do with Ron Wellman.

giggle
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Strange position you have taken here. Do you think Ron Wellman "had so much to do" with Riley Skinner chucking the football in 2006? Which AD do you think was the most successful in Wake's history?
 
lbdeac94 said:
I am not comparing Wellman to anyone, other than someone who performs their job and he has not for eight years in regards to our basketball program. Basketball defines Wake or at least it used to. I live outside Chicago. Talked to an Ohio St grad at church today and he asked where I went to school . He said Wake oh a basketball school. Seemed almost laughable to me to hear it, given the state of the program. Most people remember who we were, not where we are now. Ron Wellman is directly responsible for the state of the program and I personally would trade 100 national championships in the sports you defined above to make one final four and go back to the expectation of making the tourney every year.
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OK. I was comparing him to other Wake ADs because it seems like a reasonable comparison to make.

Without Wellman it is certainly possible we would be looking at our Conference USA standing right now, while UVA, UNC, and Duke were looking at their Big Ten records and FSU, Clemson, and Miami looking at their SEC standing. Wellman made a terrible hire in basketball, but he has also done some extremely important things for our athletic department.
 
Rafi said:
Strange position you have taken here. Do you think Ron Wellman "had so much to do" with Riley Skinner chucking the football in 2006? Which AD do you think was the most successful in Wake's history?
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No, I don't think Ron Wellman had much to do with Riley Skinner's career at Wake. I think Skinner worked his ass off on his own and made himself into the player he was.

The idea that a dude being able to chuck objects far should be attributed in some way to the athletics director is just comical. Buildings, fundraising, protecting from conference re-alignment, yes, Wellman should get credit for those things.
 
Ayo said:
No, I don't think Ron Wellman had much to do with Riley Skinner's career at Wake. I think Skinner worked his ass off on his own and made himself into the player he was.

The idea that a dude being able to chuck objects far should be attributed in some way to the athletics director is just comical. Buildings, fundraising, protecting from conference re-alignment, yes, Wellman should get credit for those things.
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Yes, I agree. The AD hires the coaches and sets the environment for success, in football and track and field. I therefore think a reasonable measure of success is national championships, and that is how I compared the ADs at Wake. I'm not sure what is controversial about this?
 
Praising wellman for shot put while ignoring the basketball decade of hell is like praising stalin because the trains ran on time.
 
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Rafi said:
Yes, I agree. The AD hires the coaches and sets the environment for success, in football and track and field. I therefore think a reasonable measure of success is national championships, and that is how I compared the ADs at Wake. I'm not sure what is controversial about this?
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Ron Wellman didn’t hire the coaches who won 5 of those national championships, including 3 of the 4 team ones (which I think we all k ow are a lot more meaningful then the individual ones), or the one who won 2 of those ACC revenue sports championships.

Don’t be trying to give Wellman credit for Dave Odom and Tim Duncan. That’s ludicrous.
 
Just a collateral observation here: I think when speaking of ADs achieving national championships, we should limit it to team sports at least, not individual performances. ADs hire coaches, they don't recruit the players. Seems like an important line of demarcation.
 
Rafi said:
Other than national championships and ACC championships in basketball and football, what stat would you like to use to compare Wake ADs to each other?
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It's an absurd thing to compare anyway considering how long they are on the job and how much the college sports landscape has changed over that time.

If you're looking for a defense of Wellman, you'd do better with something like: Manning is THE BEST coach Wake has ever had in the last 8 years.
 
Rafi said:
Here are our other national championships:

Weaver
1949 Arnold Palmer Golf
1950 Arnold Palmer Golf
[these are debated as they represent the low player in the team competition]
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No one is a bigger Arnie fan than I am... However, he did not win a national title. This is not debated, it is just confusing. When he played, the title was determined by match play. He was the qualifying medalist but then lost during match play.
 
Rafi said:
The excess drama is unnecessary and weakens your argument. To argue that we haven't been "even remotely relevant" in basketball for 25 years is wrong. We were relevant when Josh Howard led us to an ACC regular season championship, when Chris Paul's team was preseason #1 and on every college bball magazine cover, when that same team spent the entire season ranked top 10, and when we were ranked #1 with Teague, Aminu, Johnson, Ish.

There is a lot to discuss and debate regarding our athletic department, and the basketball team in particular. Over-exaggeration is just unnecessary.
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It isn't excess drama, it is reality. In the 21 seasons since Duncan left (I'm including this season because it is over and none of the following are happening), let's go through how you are attempting to justify our relevancy:

1. 1 (out of 21) regular season ACC championship, which the ACC does not even recognize. So we're making up our own championships now. Solid. Even assuming that it was recognized, and counting the ACC regular season and tournament champions as equivalent champions (which they aren't, but whatever), we are 1 for 42 in that span. 1 for 42. That is pretty fucking irrelevant. But wait, it gets better.

2. A PRESEASON #1 ranking (by who, I don't know) and some time in the top 10 that season. When preseason rankings become relevant for anything, let me know. Over that same time, as to what actually matters, and leaving the Final 4 out of it because it would be laughable, how many Elite 8 appearances do we have? Let's see, that would be zer-fucking-o. Out of 168 possible Elite 8 spots, we are 0 for 168. Solid work there. Obviously a lot of those 168 spots overlap with the same schools from year to year, but how many different schools have been there over that time? 30? 40? 50? Whatever it is, we aren't in those schools. Meanwhile, such powerhouses as Davidson, Kent State, George Mason, VCU, Butler, Providence, and Dayton have all made it at least once. Again, pretty fucking irrelevant.

3. We were ranked #1 for ONE WEEK in that 21 year period. Assuming the college basketball season is 5 months long, that is 1 week out of 420 possible #1 weekly rankings. Again, pretty fucking irrelevant.
 
Lohengrin said:
Just a collateral observation here: I think when speaking of ADs achieving national championships, we should limit it to team sports at least, not individual performances. ADs hire coaches, they don't recruit the players. Seems like an important line of demarcation.
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Loh, I don't understand this argument. In all college sports, team and individual, the AD hires the coaches and the coaches then recruit and coach the players. The formula is the same in individual and team sports - recruit good players and coach them well and they'll be successful. Why one would "count" for the AD and one would not is not clear to me. In addition, in track and field or tennis, as examples, the individual players earn points which then count toward their team accomplishments.

If you wanted to argue that team championships are more rare, and therefore more important, that argument would make sense to me.
 
Rafi said:
Loh, I don't understand this argument. In all college sports, team and individual, the AD hires the coaches and the coaches then recruit and coach the players. The formula is the same in individual and team sports - recruit good players and coach them well and they'll be successful. Why one would "count" for the AD and one would not is not clear to me. In addition, in track and field or tennis, as examples, the individual players earn points which then count toward their team accomplishments.

If you wanted to argue that team championships are more rare, and therefore more important, that argument would make sense to me.
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Okay.
 
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