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Wake Forest vs. Pitt Game Thread - We Are Such Losers

With Skip at the helm always felt that we'd somehow find a way to pull out a win.... it's been going on a decade now since that feeling has been gone. :(
#coachingmatters

LOL.

There has been so much revisionist history about Skip's coaching ability after his tragic death that it has become comical.

(Loved the way we pulled out that win over West Virginia after leading by 13 points at the half.)
 
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Bob - The point is that almost all of us would feel better with Skip on the sideline than Buzz or DM. I know you can see that. I too am from the Tacy era and would feel better with him on the bench. No matter your feeling on Skip's coaching it was a time when we were all proud of Wake basketball and the Joel was to be feared.

Let us have those memories...its all we've had for 6 years and likely a few more.
 
Why would you think any of that would occur? Wilbekin, Dinos, and Crab have made basically no improvement at all since their freshman years. They are still the same inconsistent, half-ass, semi-mediocre players that they were last year. Why would the next freshman class magically improve?

Because they're actually good players?
 
Bob - The point is that almost all of us would feel better with Skip on the sideline than Buzz or DM. I know you can see that. I too am from the Tacy era and would feel better with him on the bench. No matter your feeling on Skip's coaching it was a time when we were all proud of Wake basketball and the Joel was to be feared.

Let us have those memories...its all we've had for 6 years and likely a few more.

Don't you know Bob's sole mission in life is to make everyone as miserable as he is.
 
Because they're actually good players?

Right. They don't appear to have the obvious limitations of many of our non-freshmen and they have shown signs of skills that could develop well.
 
Bob - The point is that almost all of us would feel better with Skip on the sideline than Buzz or DM. I know you can see that. I too am from the Tacy era and would feel better with him on the bench. No matter your feeling on Skip's coaching it was a time when we were all proud of Wake basketball and the Joel was to be feared.

Let us have those memories...its all we've had for 6 years and likely a few more.

I agree with everything you have said. Obviously, Skip was a far better coach than Buzz or Manning.....but that's not setting the bar very high. I guess that I just get frustrated by the fact that so many posters cannot separate Skip the Man from Skip the Coach. As a person, Skip Prosser may well be the most admirable person who ever represented WF. They just don't come any better than Skip. As a coach, he was average to slightly above average, in my opinion. He attracted good talent because of the kind of person he was...so that would ensure that we would always be competitive. As a bench coach, though, he was only average...and that is what would have always kept us from deep advancements into the NCAA Tournament. Skip could beat the teams he was supposed to beat, but he almost never won games when he had to outcoach the other team. His post-season record is evidence of this. However, there can be no question that his integrity was such that you couldn't find a better person to represent the University.
 
This program is laughable from the top down. From the AD to the coaching to the players. The only glimpse of hope are these three freshman. And with that, they will have to defy the odds of a poor administration and bad coaching to turn this program around. They must take it amongst themselves. Along with these incoming freshman.
 
What did Battle do? Recruit CMM, Fischer and Chennault. I'll take Crawford ( Chill) any day.
 
What did Battle do? Recruit CMM, Fischer and Chennault. I'll take Crawford ( Chill) any day.

Are you forgetting the entire time Battle coached before the CMM/Chennault class? Battle did great things for Wake.
 
Losers lose. Winners find a way to win.

We are losers.

Feel bad for DT...4 years of the same BS. He was Travis McKie'd. What a waste.

If this isn't an endorsement for Danny Manning, I don't know what is.
 
Speaking of Travis McKie, he gave up on himself and the team. I would put Devin in a Category with CJ Harris, not McKie.
 
Where's DCDeac to defend?

Your obsession is flattering.

From day 1 I said this team's expectation should be the NIT. I've called this year a failure of coaching a dozen times over the course of the season. With Codi's injury and then playing like ass I think our ceiling was more like VaTech/NC State, pardon me if I could give a shit if we win 1 or 3 or 5 ACC games on the way to missing another postseason.

The problem is that if you think coaching lost the game last night then you're an idiot. We missed half our free throws and gave up a million offensive boards, including an offensive rebound that gave up the 3 to send it to overtime. You don't hear a word about how productive our offense must have been to send the game to double OT on the road to a likely NCAA team with those free throw and rebounding stats - just how Manning's an idiot for not playing Moore in OT. The same posters who blasted Manning for not putting Wilbekin on the floor in a free throw situation are blasting him for running an ISO for him this time with a timeout available. Wilbekin gets stuck in quicksand, Codi panics and doesn't call a timeout and throws a horrible pass. UVA runs the exact same split all the time with Brogdon when he gets single coverage. We scored on like our first 3 consecutive set inbounds plays as well but who cares, coach is a moron.

Manning may fail or succeed at Wake, but all these armchair coaches calling him an idiot or that he knows nothing about coaching - it's just laughable. Is it reasonable to disagree on Moore not playing in OT? Sure. Did Moore give up rally-killing consecutive 3 point plays earlier in the game? Yes. Everyone kicked and screamed about Trent VanHorn's PT early in the season even when we were winning - later Manning tightens the rotation like most wanted and we start losing. 10 different posters throw 20 different lineups out - Dinos at the 3, Codi on the bench, bring back McClinton, etc - when Manning plays with odd lineups he gets torched as if there's some magic winning lineup he's not using.

Another routine comment - Manning never plays zone. Actually we've broken out a zone for multiple possessions in just about every game sine Indiana, and against Pitt we ran a 2-3 and a matchup zone at them for much of the game. We struggled to rebound out of that zone which is the usual trade off - and now Manning can't coach effort.

This year has been a pick-your-poison experience, cemented in horrid free throw shooting and inconsistent play from everyone not named Devin Thomas we just a very flawed team. There is a ton of fair criticism for lineups, minutes, energy, etc - and there's no arguing the aggregate is a truly horrid, epically bad season. In my opinion, Manning looks like a coach that has a very, very difficult time straying from his plan. Moore is a project, develop him in practice, play him 4 minutes a game, plan for the future. When he proved himself early there was no adjustment to the plan. Same with the starting lineup, with Codi, with switching defenses, etc. Same with Dinos, although he has drastically reduced his minutes - it just took forever. I've heard Manning believes in earning change in practice, not in games - and all fans see is games. Until we actual win there will always be a disconnect there.

I think there's still hope that he can build a good program on the backs of guys like Crawford, Moore, and Collins. Everyone keeps talking Tony Bennett - but he lost over 30 games in his first two years and didn't win a real ACC tournament game or an NCAA tournament game until year 5 - and he had legit talent in Mike Scott and Joe Harris among others.

Is my belief that he's going to be successful diminished after this year? Sure. But the sky-is-falling internet warriors that think the majority of the basketball world is simply wrong about Manning and that he's spent almost 15 years coaching only to become a bumbling moron of a coach is just as ridiculous as second guessing every coaching move in a game we that we should have coasted to an easy win.

So yeah, I guess DCDeac defends. But if you know the first thing about basketball it's virtually impossible not to given how hypocritical so many of the criticisms are.
 
Your obsession is flattering.

From day 1 I said this team's expectation should be the NIT. I've called this year a failure of coaching a dozen times over the course of the season. With Codi's injury and then playing like ass I think our ceiling was more like VaTech/NC State, pardon me if I could give a shit if we win 1 or 3 or 5 ACC games on the way to missing another postseason.

The problem is that if you think coaching lost the game last night then you're an idiot. We missed half our free throws and gave up a million offensive boards, including an offensive rebound that gave up the 3 to send it to overtime. You don't hear a word about how productive our offense must have been to send the game to double OT on the road to a likely NCAA team with those free throw and rebounding stats - just how Manning's an idiot for not playing Moore in OT. The same posters who blasted Manning for not putting Wilbekin on the floor in a free throw situation are blasting him for running an ISO for him this time with a timeout available. Wilbekin gets stuck in quicksand, Codi panics and doesn't call a timeout and throws a horrible pass. UVA runs the exact same split all the time with Brogdon when he gets single coverage. We scored on like our first 3 consecutive set inbounds plays as well but who cares, coach is a moron.

Manning may fail or succeed at Wake, but all these armchair coaches calling him an idiot or that he knows nothing about coaching - it's just laughable. Is it reasonable to disagree on Moore not playing in OT? Sure. Did Moore give up rally-killing consecutive 3 point plays earlier in the game? Yes. Everyone kicked and screamed about Trent VanHorn's PT early in the season even when we were winning - later Manning tightens the rotation like most wanted and we start losing. 10 different posters throw 20 different lineups out - Dinos at the 3, Codi on the bench, bring back McClinton, etc - when Manning plays with odd lineups he gets torched as if there's some magic winning lineup he's not using.

Another routine comment - Manning never plays zone. Actually we've broken out a zone for multiple possessions in just about every game sine Indiana, and against Pitt we ran a 2-3 and a matchup zone at them for much of the game. We struggled to rebound out of that zone which is the usual trade off - and now Manning can't coach effort.

This year has been a pick-your-poison experience, cemented in horrid free throw shooting and inconsistent play from everyone not named Devin Thomas we just a very flawed team. There is a ton of fair criticism for lineups, minutes, energy, etc - and there's no arguing the aggregate is a truly horrid, epically bad season. In my opinion, Manning looks like a coach that has a very, very difficult time straying from his plan. Moore is a project, develop him in practice, play him 4 minutes a game, plan for the future. When he proved himself early there was no adjustment to the plan. Same with the starting lineup, with Codi, with switching defenses, etc. Same with Dinos, although he has drastically reduced his minutes - it just took forever. I've heard Manning believes in earning change in practice, not in games - and all fans see is games. Until we actual win there will always be a disconnect there.

I think there's still hope that he can build a good program on the backs of guys like Crawford, Moore, and Collins. Everyone keeps talking Tony Bennett - but he lost over 30 games in his first two years and didn't win a real ACC tournament game or an NCAA tournament game until year 5 - and he had legit talent in Mike Scott and Joe Harris among others.

Is my belief that he's going to be successful diminished after this year? Sure. But the sky-is-falling internet warriors that think the majority of the basketball world is simply wrong about Manning and that he's spent almost 15 years coaching only to become a bumbling moron of a coach is just as ridiculous as second guessing every coaching move in a game we that we should have coasted to an easy win.

So yeah, I guess DCDeac defends. But if you know the first thing about basketball it's virtually impossible not to given how hypocritical so many of the criticisms are.

I agree with most of your post other than the glaring lack of intensity and effort. The bold illustrates a complete lack of effort. They teach boxing out in rec leagues. I don't blame our FT's on the coaches but it's hard not to blame the coaches for a lack of effort.
 
Skip Prosser produced what was likely a top 5 team in Wake history in 2005. We had the top offense in the nation and finished like 7th in the country in KP (even after the WVU loss).

Trying to diminish that seems dumb.
 
Your obsession is flattering.

From day 1 I said this team's expectation should be the NIT. I've called this year a failure of coaching a dozen times over the course of the season. With Codi's injury and then playing like ass I think our ceiling was more like VaTech/NC State, pardon me if I could give a shit if we win 1 or 3 or 5 ACC games on the way to missing another postseason.

The problem is that if you think coaching lost the game last night then you're an idiot. We missed half our free throws and gave up a million offensive boards, including an offensive rebound that gave up the 3 to send it to overtime. You don't hear a word about how productive our offense must have been to send the game to double OT on the road to a likely NCAA team with those free throw and rebounding stats - just how Manning's an idiot for not playing Moore in OT. The same posters who blasted Manning for not putting Wilbekin on the floor in a free throw situation are blasting him for running an ISO for him this time with a timeout available. Wilbekin gets stuck in quicksand, Codi panics and doesn't call a timeout and throws a horrible pass. UVA runs the exact same split all the time with Brogdon when he gets single coverage. We scored on like our first 3 consecutive set inbounds plays as well but who cares, coach is a moron.

Manning may fail or succeed at Wake, but all these armchair coaches calling him an idiot or that he knows nothing about coaching - it's just laughable. Is it reasonable to disagree on Moore not playing in OT? Sure. Did Moore give up rally-killing consecutive 3 point plays earlier in the game? Yes. Everyone kicked and screamed about Trent VanHorn's PT early in the season even when we were winning - later Manning tightens the rotation like most wanted and we start losing. 10 different posters throw 20 different lineups out - Dinos at the 3, Codi on the bench, bring back McClinton, etc - when Manning plays with odd lineups he gets torched as if there's some magic winning lineup he's not using.

Another routine comment - Manning never plays zone. Actually we've broken out a zone for multiple possessions in just about every game sine Indiana, and against Pitt we ran a 2-3 and a matchup zone at them for much of the game. We struggled to rebound out of that zone which is the usual trade off - and now Manning can't coach effort.

This year has been a pick-your-poison experience, cemented in horrid free throw shooting and inconsistent play from everyone not named Devin Thomas we just a very flawed team. There is a ton of fair criticism for lineups, minutes, energy, etc - and there's no arguing the aggregate is a truly horrid, epically bad season. In my opinion, Manning looks like a coach that has a very, very difficult time straying from his plan. Moore is a project, develop him in practice, play him 4 minutes a game, plan for the future. When he proved himself early there was no adjustment to the plan. Same with the starting lineup, with Codi, with switching defenses, etc. Same with Dinos, although he has drastically reduced his minutes - it just took forever. I've heard Manning believes in earning change in practice, not in games - and all fans see is games. Until we actual win there will always be a disconnect there.

I think there's still hope that he can build a good program on the backs of guys like Crawford, Moore, and Collins. Everyone keeps talking Tony Bennett - but he lost over 30 games in his first two years and didn't win a real ACC tournament game or an NCAA tournament game until year 5 - and he had legit talent in Mike Scott and Joe Harris among others.

Is my belief that he's going to be successful diminished after this year? Sure. But the sky-is-falling internet warriors that think the majority of the basketball world is simply wrong about Manning and that he's spent almost 15 years coaching only to become a bumbling moron of a coach is just as ridiculous as second guessing every coaching move in a game we that we should have coasted to an easy win.

So yeah, I guess DCDeac defends. But if you know the first thing about basketball it's virtually impossible not to given how hypocritical so many of the criticisms are.

So if coaching has nothing to do with blocking out, effort on the boards, making poor decisions on inbound passes, taking bad shots, making too many turnovers, and using timeouts in key situations, what are paying a coach for?
 
Moore even giving up those 3 point plays was by far one of our 5 best players last night. Dinos got 27 of the 80 post minutes last night and collected zero rebounds and got constantly abused inside for points.
 
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