WF @ VT (10/14), 3:30PM on ACC Network

[Deacsfan27]

And I believe was fired after only one year? Maybe fired before the end of the season?

Yes, Lane Kiffin fired him when he took over after Fulmer left.

 

[spritethr]

Gotta love ogboards.com... how many P5 schools have fans proudly chest thumping over not providing resources needed to compete at the highest level?

It's almost like some of you clowns want the revenue programs to go into the shitter just to say "I told you so - Wake sucks" so you can spend more time rooting for your second (or first?) favorite team

Sorry for not having the money nor not really wanting to pay $11 a month towards the NIL collective. I’ll shut up now since I’m evidently not a Wake fan and want our football program to crash and burn because of this

 

[scooter84]

Sorry for not having the money nor not really wanting to pay $11 a month towards the NIL collective. I’ll shut up now since I’m evidently not a Wake fan and want our football program to crash and burn because of this

Don't be dense. No one faults anyone for not being able to afford to give - or for making fiscal decisions for themselves and their family that may not allow giving at this time. You were taking the position that you were "proud" not to give - which is very different and which implies that you wouldn't give even if you had plenty of money.

 

[Rafi]

I'm worried that in the NIL market, Wake won't be able to compete at a high level in football.

There is a lot of hand wringing on this thread, which I think has everything to do with Wake being 3-3 (and going the wrong direction) and essentially nothing to do with the effects of NIL on the current team. Last year, when we were 5-0 and ranked #10 in the country we obviously didn't have game threads like this.

I guess it is human nature for some to spiral quickly on a message board. 1 month ago our men's soccer team lost to Pitt and some on here were commenting that the program has fallen down (despite being #1 in the country last year). Well, we're now ranked #4 in the country in men's soccer.

For years people blamed our lack of baseball success on financial contraints, and it was said multiple times that we can't compete given our current constraints. Well, last year blew up that narrative.

I'm not saying NIL isn't a big deal going forward, it probably is. But blaming NIL on the performance of our current football squad, just doesn't make sense, especially when the defense is better than it has been in years. As I have written on these boards hundreds of times - in college, it's about the coaches. There are just so many examples of good coaches elevating bad programs (Duke football is a great current example) and bad coaches tanking good programs (Matt Doherty, to keep the comparisons in the Triangle).

 

[spritethr]

You were taking the position that you were "proud" not to give

I feel like there was a pretty good degree of snark when I said I was proud. If I had enough money, would I? Maybe. But I don’t think not donating to NIL when you can disqualifies you from being a fan like what was initially suggested. That’s just asinine

 

[bym051d]

There is a lot of hand wringing on this thread, which I think has everything to do with Wake being 3-3 (and going the wrong direction) and essentially nothing to do with the effects of NIL on the current team.

Would we have won any more games with Hartman?

 

[Rafi]

A school like Wake often has to think out of the box/ahead of the curve to survive or thrive. What would that look like in this NIL world?

Maybe look at Wake baseball for an example. Develop advanced analytics teams with the goal of improving players chances of being drafted and making a professional roster. This is a cool approach because professors and non-student athletes can participate, like they do in the pitching lab, which unites several aspects of the school.

 

[scooter84]

I feel like there was a pretty good degree of snark when I said I was proud

And rightly so. Why would you be proud not to give? That sounds like a position where you will not be giving no matter what, on principle. Which is very different from your later post saying you don't have the money to give. Which is it?

 

[Rafi]

Would we have won any more games with Hartman?

I think almost certainly. Our main issue this year, in my opinion, is QB play. But Hartman was leaving Wake no matter what. He told the coaches that before the year started. He was a student at Wake for 5 years (plus summers) - he had taken all the classes and done everything there was to do as a student athlete. We got 5 years of Hartman playing QB - hard to ask for anything more than that.

And the coaches did not look for replacement QB in the portal. They thought we were set at the QB position. So again, hard to blame that on NIL.

 

[spritethr]

And rightly so. Why would you be proud not to give? That sounds like a position where you will not be giving no matter what, on principle. Which is very different from your later post saying you don't have the money to give. Which is it?

I really think you’re reading a little too deep into this. I thought what I said was pretty clearly in jest to point out how the point Angus was making just wasn’t a good point, but I guess not

 

[BacktoBack]

There is a lot of hand wringing on this thread, which I think has everything to do with Wake being 3-3 (and going the wrong direction) and essentially nothing to do with the effects of NIL on the current team. Last year, when we were 5-0 and ranked #10 in the country we obviously didn't have game threads like this.

I guess it is human nature for some to spiral quickly on a message board. 1 month ago our men's soccer team lost to Pitt and some on here were commenting that the program has fallen down (despite being #1 in the country last year). Well, we're now ranked #4 in the country in men's soccer.

For years people blamed our lack of baseball success on financial contraints, and it was said multiple times that we can't compete given our current constraints. Well, last year blew up that narrative.

I'm not saying NIL isn't a big deal going forward, it probably is. But blaming NIL on the performance of our current football squad, just doesn't make sense, especially when the defense is better than it has been in years. As I have written on these boards hundreds of times - in college, it's about the coaches. There are just so many examples of good coaches elevating bad programs (Duke football is a great current example) and bad coaches tanking good programs (Matt Doherty, to keep the comparisons in the Triangle).

I think you're intermingling two issues. I think most of us recognize this team isn't bad per se because of NIL. But, at least for me, my hand wringing is over the fact that we're awful now. May continue to be so next year. And will continue into the future as NIL catches up with us more and more. It's a recognition of our looming long term disposition. If you think comparing low level revenue sports like soccer and baseball to football is a fair comparison - I think you're being disingenuous

 

[Colonel Angus]

But I don’t think not donating to NIL when you can disqualifies you from being a fan like what was initially suggested. That’s just asinine

Please point out where someone suggested not donating to NIL disqualifies you from being a fan.

I'll hang up and listen

 

[TheAbster]

I think you're intermingling two issues. I think most of us recognize this team isn't bad per se because of NIL. But, at least for me, my hand wringing is over the fact that we're awful now. May continue to be so next year. And will continue into the future as NIL catches up with us more and more. It's a recognition of our looming long term disposition. If you think comparing low level revenue sports like soccer and baseball to football is a fair comparison - I think you're being disingenuous

VERY WELL STATED. I'm not sure how his argument can have it both ways. NIL had no impact yet Hartman took $$$ from ND and Bothroyd left with $$$ for Oklahoma. Two very key players from last year's team. But, yes, I think hand-wringing over future NIL impact is more than justified at this point. Can Wake fix it? I'll do my part in giving to the collective but we're going to need Uncle Bob $$$ along with others.

 

[Rafi]

I think you're intermingling two issues. I think most of us recognize this team isn't bad per se because of NIL. But, at least for me, my hand wringing is over the fact that we're awful now. May continue to be so next year. And will continue into the future as NIL catches up with us more and more. It's a recognition of our looming long term disposition. If you think comparing low level revenue sports like soccer and baseball to football is a fair comparison - I think you're being disingenuous

I agree they are two different issues. But there have been comments on this game thread such as, "A recruiting problem that began in summer 2021 would take 2-3 years to manifest on the field. The team is only now starting to rely on players recruited in the NIL era."

The soccer comparison wasn't related to NIL. It was related to the tendency of message boards to over exaggerate things - like commenting that a program is falling down because of one loss (even though that program was #1 in the country the previous season).

College baseball is a growing sport, with NIL becoming heavily involved last year. I agree that it's not on the same level as football, but it's worth keeping an eye on the model, since we recruited one of the top players (Burns), from a top team (TN), last year, in the setting of lots of active NIL programs (like LSU).

 

[DeacDaddy]

I’ve asked before if the rules prevent this as I’d think they would. But no rules seem sacred or sensible anymore.

Is Clawson permitted from putting a million of his own dollars into the collective? If he values his salary and job security, seems like an ideal investment.

 

[Rafi]

VERY WELL STATED. I'm not sure how his argument can have it both ways. NIL had no impact yet Hartman took $$$ from ND and Bothroyd left with $$$ for Oklahoma. Two very key players from last year's team. But, yes, I think hand-wringing over future NIL impact is more than justified at this point. Can Wake fix it? I'll do my part in giving to the collective but we're going to need Uncle Bob $$$ along with others.

As BtB said, it's two different issues. Hartman was gone no matter what. Bothroyd also played 5 years at Wake - and the defense is better this year, so it's hard to argue that NIL is hurting the defense this year.

 

[Wakelaw2006]

VERY WELL STATED. I'm not sure how his argument can have it both ways. NIL had no impact yet Hartman took $$$ from ND and Bothroyd left with $$$ for Oklahoma. Two very key players from last year's team.

Both of those players were 6th year grad students with an extra COVID year. I imagine none of us are in a place to ever know, but I don’t think $1MM or more would have kept Sam here - he said 1 more year (admittedly, most of us probably thought that meant an NFL attempt, but regardless, have gave Wake 1 more year) before his 5th even started.

 

[Atlanta Deacon]

The money for NIL and for coaches theoretically isn't coming from the same place. For now.

This is what's so screwed up with NIL. It would be like the GM of the Braves not actually working for the Braves but deciding what to pay players but not having to consult with the team. It makes no sense. The money for coaches at big state schools typically comes from a combination of the school and the booster club. This is one more level removed. The schools will continue to get their TV money, but donations to a school should dry up and be diverted to the collective.

 

[bcobbdeacs]

My guess is Elko left Wake for big time programs. Got exposure to good and great talent. He got accolades every where he went. He saw what it took to win at P5.

Clawson was a little guy who played at a little school and coached at same. Wake was the pinnacle, a school that straddled the line between D2 & D1. He's fb smart, hardworking, great organizer. But he's never worked at Tennessee, Clemson, and Michigan. He is now lost as to identify the problem. Much like "the forest for the trees", everyone saw Kern as an obvious option worth a look. Clawson couldn't see it from his vantage point. Either a flaw or stubornness.

Another possible factor is Elko likely gave some firm speeches to Duke alum in the NBA and challenged them to "give back" and help build the other big revenue sport at Duke. Besides the advantage here, Duke also has more grads, hence more millionaires. Look at who's starting and having an impact for Duke this year. It's enough to turn a program around....and it has.

From a NIL meeting last winter, aboard member who I feel certain knows what he is talking about, at final interview Elko said he would come to Duke if given 1000000 for NIL immediately. Was granted and he bought 10 linemen at 100000 each and they are the difference makers. Strong o and d lines can control and disrupt other teams.

 

[YankeeInAtlanta]

What’s Wrong With Wake Forest?

What’s Wrong With Wake Forest? The Demon Deacons are on a three game losing streak with few signs of being able to turn it around

lastwordonsports.com

It still blows my mind that Clawson's practices are so flawed that he didn't see this coming. He truly believed the Mitch Griffis we saw behind the OL we've seen running the offense they've prepared would be competitive in the ACC. Wake hasn't finished 0-8 in ACC since 1995 yet that is a real possibility this season.

The majority of the blame for this season's failure should be placed directly on Clawson. He deserves a chance to fix it and Wake will give him longer than most schools would.

The reality is Clawson has only had two winning seasons in conference games and Wake's measure of success has mostly been making bowl games, which has primarily been achieved by beating bad out of conference teams.

The impact of NIL is another issue that also needs to be addressed.