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Grading the season

We were an 11 Seed. There is no way around this fact. If there was a preseason poll asking, "Would becoming an 11 seed in the NCAAT be considered excelling for this team?", I'd guess at least 85-90% of the board would have agreed.
 
RJ

You don't know me well enough to make a judgement about my expectations as a fan as I don't know you...do enjoy your post though.

For the record:

I'm a DM fan and badly want him to succeed
I think he did a great job this year given our past
I think great could have been outstanding with just 2 of the following...beat Duke at home...beat Clemson at home...beat Cuse on the road (I think we can all agree that 2 of those things were very possible)
I can assure you that a win over K State in my mind made this "back to relevant" season a wonderful success...anything beyond that would have been gravy.

I have high expectations for this program but not UNC/Duke expectations.
The bar has been set so I do absolutely expect that next year we not only make the dance but at a 10 seed or higher...is that too much to expect?
 
Was Wake ever a double digit seed before this year?
 
That's not at all too much, but no one expected us to become an 11 seed before the season. there's no way to say we didn't wildly exceed expectations.

Why would you think we should have beaten Cuse at Cuse? They were 8-1 at home in the ACC. They beat three teams that were in the Top 10 when they played them at home (UVA, Duke, F$U).

We had dramatic holes in this team this season, but somehow cobbled together a plan that got us to 9-9 in the ACC, 19 wins and an 11 seed.
 
RJ - My point on the Clemson, Duke and Cuse game is that we were in a position late to win all 3. Prior to tip off I only expected us to beat Clemson but once we went late into the second half the games were there for us to win. I was only asking for 2 of 3 as our great play put us in a position to win. Not closing 2 of those games out...especially Duke wasn't acceptable.

No more moral victories for Wake...I'm not sure when we'll ever beat Duke again but letting that one get away will stay with us a long time.
 
The coach can only do so much. He can put the team into position, but the players have to execute. We should have beaten Clemson. Our lack of having anyone to cover a 6'5+ wing killed us against Duke.

There's no such thing as a moral victory.

Our team exceeded all reasonable expectations this year. It's about the entire season, not a single game or two.
 
Shake said:
I'm probably old school as it relates to the NCAA tournament but for me making the dance means I get to watch my team either on Thursday or Friday and have the opportunity to write their name in my bracket.

This is now year number 7 that I cant find a bracket anywhere where I can write in Wake Forest to advance to the round of 32.

The last 7 years have absolutely killed the passion, drive and expectations of our fan base.

Lastly the K State was the most important game of the season because if we win that game the majority of our fan base would be united, supportive and optimistic heading into the off season. Even if Cincy would have beat us by 20 it would not have mattered.

Beat K State and the entire mood changes around here.
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^^^^^
This. And I got neg rep for it?

Hey OGB :fu:
 
Junebug said:
Well, then "exceeding expectations," which appears to be your sole metric, isn't relevant either. The only relevant metric, according to your logic, is wins/losses, which is not a full picture. This isn't a standardized test.

I agree that "exceeding expectations" is relevant. But if a coach exceeds expectations but does not get the maximum potential out of the team, he didn't do as good of a job as the coach who exceeded expectations and did get the maximum potential out of the team.

I assume you don't like "maximum potential" because you can't kenpom it, but I think it's highly relevant, even if subjective.
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What the hell are you talking about. Every class has a set of expectations students have to meet in order to get a certain grade. That's literally how all halfway decent performance evaluations work.

If you are grading Manning on this full season it only makes sense to do so based on reasonable expectations heading into the season.

If you are grading Manning based on where we are at the end of year 3 it only makes sense to do so based on reasonable expectations coming out of the [Redacted] debacle.

By either measure he's in the B+ range at a minimum.
 
Would Manning really deserve a higher grade if instead of a bunch of blown leads against better teams we had a bunch of backdoor covers?

Y'all are basically taking the preseason expectations of 16-17 wins and bumping it up mid season to 22-23 wins based on a bunch of second half leads (demonstrating top 20 potential) and the giving Manning a C because he "only" won 19 games and "only" finished in the top 35.

Fucking absurd.
 
RC...its really ok if some people see this differently than you. Debate is what message boards are all about.

When you start down the road of being defensive and the ever popular "if you don't see it my way then you must be stupid" your effectiveness is diminished and you come off as someone who talks down to folks. My suggestion is to disagree with anyone but respect all Deacs on this board.
 
Shake said:
RC...its really ok if some people see this differently than you. Debate is what message boards are all about.

When you start down the road of being defensive and the ever popular "if you don't see it my way then you must be stupid" your effectiveness is diminished and you come off as someone who talks down to folks. My suggestion is to disagree with anyone but respect all Deacs on this board.
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Feel free to dispute my argument. Of course it's ok for us to disagree but only one of us can be right.

I don't have less respect for people that hold blatantly wrong views about sports (that would be stupid), but given that this is a message board for discussing Wake Forest sports, I'm going to tell people when they are spouting off ridiculous views about Wake Forest sports.

If you truly think Manning deserves a C for this season or for the rebuild in general be willing to defend that argument. Don't give it up on the first sign of resistance and complain because someone pointed out how shitty your argument was. Take that #snowflake shit to the Tunnels.
 
Lighten up Francis! :tard:

Personally, I'm still hurting over the turd that we laid in Dayton.
 
You just told me what I suspected about you...when you state something about Wake sports all of those who disagree are wrong. No need to debate anything with someone who is not willing to see another side to an argument...waste of energy.

Wow #snowflake shit...did you just make that up, very cool. I bet after you wrote that you probably dropped down and did 50 push ups.
 
Solid B for Manning. There is no way to go higher with a defense that was a disaster. Offense was way better than expected but the defense should not have been that bad. There was literally no defense in the second half of both tournament games.

Preseason expectations do not reflect that Wake has an All American in Collins. If you feel that ALL of the credit for Collins improvement goes to Manning then I see where you could give him an A.

If someone wanted to be overly negative you could say that Manning wasted the final year of the best player since Chris Paul by not having a passable defense. That seems a bit harsh to me.
 
Shake said:
I'm a DM fan and badly want him to succeed
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Bullshit. You epitomize MFF and are constantly criticizing Manning or comparing him to Bzdoofus.

Shake said:
I find Wes as equally qualified as Buzz or DM and now maybe even more.
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Shake said:
A couple of myths at least in my mind...

DM is an outstanding recruiter - I just don't see this at all because if you are a great recruiter you should be competing for a NCAA birth in year 3. He's maybe on par with Bizz but not even in the same zip code as GDO, Skip and Dino...hell even Tacy was better.

16-14 gets us to the NIT - I give us about a 10% chance with that record (i give us a 35% chance of actually achieving that record) since the NIT goes harder after the mid majors left out for their tournament.
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Shake said:
This will be year 7 with no postseason and not even a bubble team in March. Since the field expanded to 64 teams has there ever been a 7 year stretch where Wake Forest made no postseason appearance?

I'm so tired of arguing time outs, substitutions, DM has us on the right track but it takes time, if you cant see we're better then you're crazy...yada yada

Its time to effing win and earn your effing money...this is big boy basketball and we were once really good at this and now we suck.
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Shake said:
I think from a fan's perspective we've sucked for a long time. This is likely year #7 with no postseason play. While DM isn't responsible for the first 4 years he must be aware that taking over our program assumes an urgency and that if he goes a 3rd year without any type of postseason in my mind and opinion he should be on the hottest of seats for year 4. I will agree we're better but if you want to be an elite program being a little better each year is probably not progress and actually could mean falling further behind given the strength of the ACC.

At this point in year 3 are we any better quantitatively than the same point in year 3 of Buzz?
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Shake said:
At best we finish 12th next year...year 7 of no postseason
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Shake said:
Howland, Buzz and a host of others would be doing better. Its not so much this season's results as based on the last 2 years how do you feel about the next 3 years.

Do you believe this year's freshman class will ever play in an NCAA tournament? I say no but if you believe yes then they'll need to be at least the 8th pace team...tell me who finishes behind us.
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Shake said:
Sorry but you get 3 years in today's basketball world. Show me one coach who will have a record like DM after next year who actually turns things around and becomes a top 25 program. Don't start with the Dean and K first few years...that was then and things are different now. These guys make way too much money and with today's NCAA tourney its get me to the dance or go find another job.

Finish .500 in the ACC next year or he and Wellman both need to move on. There is no way VT should be able to have the results they have in Buzz year 2 and not Wake. Danny and his assistants have absolutely no emotion during a game. Our play reflects our coaches.

Maybe one day Wake fans will stop justifying this shit show of a BB program and demand better.
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Shake said:
We're in year 6 of absolutely shit show basketball based on the 15 years before that and it will continue into year 7 and likely year 8. Buzz or Manning...who is the worst of the 2...thats what we as Wake fans argue about now. To quote Hillary Clinton "what difference does it make"...the measure of Wake basketball once was where will we be seeded and how does our bracket lay out. To discuss anything different is what fans of schools who never make the tournament do. Its absolutely amazing to me how far our program has fallen and that our administration, most fans and alums just don't give a shit anymore.

But hey carry on with the Bizz/Manning comparisons...great reading!
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Shake said:
You just told me what I suspected about you...when you state something about Wake sports all of those who disagree are wrong. No need to debate anything with someone who is not willing to see another side to an argument...waste of energy.

Wow #snowflake shit...did you just make that up, very cool. I bet after you wrote that you probably dropped down and did 50 push ups.
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I actually didn't say that. You may very well be right. You haven't presented a very strong argument to support your case but it's possible Manning really does deserve a C.

Typically asking someone to "see your side of the argument" is evidence that you have a shitty argument. So is making ad hominem attacks on critics of your arguments. I may be an arrogant condescending prick on these message boards, but that doesn't make me any more or less wrong.

Spend more time arguing why you think Manning deserves a C and less time complaining about my obstinate posting style.
 
knowell said:
Solid B for Manning. There is no way to go higher with a defense that was a disaster. Offense was way better than expected but the defense should not have been that bad. There was literally no defense in the second half of both tournament games.

Preseason expectations do not reflect that Wake has an All American in Collins. If you feel that ALL of the credit for Collins improvement goes to Manning then I see where you could give him an A. (Not saying that's what happened but one could hold that view).

If someone wanted to be overly negative you could say that Manning wasted the final year of the best player since Chris Paul by not having a passable defense. That seems a bit harsh to me.
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Manning recruited Collins. He gets credit for whatever Collins does or doesn't do on the floor. Sometimes you luck your way into an A.

If you would have said before the season that Manning deserves an A if he goes 19-13, has us in the top 35 and makes the NCAA tournament (not saying you would have but most people would have) then you should say the same thing after the season.
 
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