Pulse of the Fanbase: End of Year 2 of the Manning Era

[knowell]

It's funny that at this point we are aspiring to historically average. Unfortunately that is aiming a bit too high.

 

[TheIshThatSaved WakeForest]

I've been critical of the Sensational 7 class in the past, but in retrospect, there were some decent pieces in the class, but it was just too big. CMM, Devin, Moto, and Cav - if that was the class, combined with some quality coaching, I think it would've been a historically average class by Wake standards, or maybe just a notch below it. Certainly not a program-changing class that would've put you over the hump but decent (once again, with some quality coaching).

While that class lacked a star, it really was solid. The problem was that his other classes produced absolutely nothing.

 

[PhDeac]

It was a below average Wake class.

 

[DeaconSig]

If you look at the past sets of Wake "volume" classes, it was easily the worst since at least the Vid/Shoe/ROK class, and maybe worse than that. Smith/Williams/McFarland/Gurley/Skeen was better, Gray/Williams/Strickland/Ellis/Joyce was better, and Hicks/Scott/Murray/Songalia/Dawson was better. ROK was a better player than anybody in the Sensational 7, but there may have been more depth in this most recent class.

 

[coredeac]

So envious of VT fans right now. They got the better coach by a mile.

 

[PhDeac]

If you look at the past sets of Wake "volume" classes, it was easily the worst since at least the Vid/Shoe/ROK class, and maybe worse than that. Smith/Williams/McFarland/Gurley/Skeen was better, Gray/Williams/Strickland/Ellis/Joyce was better, and Hicks/Scott/Murray/Songalia/Dawson was better. ROK was a better player than anybody in the Sensational 7, but there may have been more depth in this most recent class.

It was a seven man class that netted two All-ACC honorable mention seasons. The other classes had an at least one All-ACC 1st, 2nd, 3rd, rookie, and/or defense player.

 

[Deke 73]

I voted 3.
Look where VT was 2 years ago, and look where they are now. 11-8 in the ACC and moving to the quarterfinals. Two years ago, they were not competitive, they have a substandard home arena, and no basketball tradition. Amazing what a competent athletic director and effective basketball coach can do. Then look at where Wake is after six years with Wellman, [Redacted], and Manning. How Wellman has any credibility, support, or job is beyond belief. 2-17 in the ACC after six years of culture change and continued assurances of the right path, from our athletic director.

 

[OldGoldBeard]

It was a seven man class that netted two All-ACC honorable mention seasons. The other classes had an at least one All-ACC 1st, 2nd, 3rd, rookie, and/or defense player.

And not only were the good (relative term) players mediocre, the bad players generally stayed and ate up scholarships that could have been used to rebuild the roster. At least A.W. Hamilton had the courtesy to transfer after his freshman year.

By my count, Bzz brought in 13.5 players: Fischer, Green, Fields, CMM, Devin, Cavanaugh, Moto, Rountree, Jones, Washington, Overton, McClinton, Watson, and partial credit for Hudson. Barring an explosion by Watson or McClinton (I'll wait for the laughter to subside), not a single one of those players will be named All-ACC.

 

[RacerDeac]

You still think Manning could be on his eventual way to Kansas? "Cautiously optimistic" is underselling yourself a bit, don't you think?

I think he meant arKANSAS, as in Arkansas Pine Bluff, Arkansas State, or Central Arkansas. He definitely didn't mean Kansas, the #1 team in the nation.

 

[Demonwolverine]

In contrast to Buzz Williams, Bruce Pearl just finished his 2nd season at Auburn dead last in the SEC after getting blown out in the SEC Tournament play-in game last night. I don't think there are many people that would say Bruce Pearl can't coach, or that he can't motivate his players. These major turnarounds are more difficult than they seem.

We may not have a complete coach in DM, but I think his in game coaching problems are very correctable. Recruiting is more of a concern in my book, but I'm not throwing in the towel on him just yet. Especially given our freshmen.

 

[RaleighTriad]

In contrast to Buzz Williams, Bruce Pearl just finished his 2nd season at Auburn dead last in the SEC after getting blown out in the SEC Tournament play-in game last night. I don't think there are many people that would say Bruce Pearl can't coach, or that he can't motivate his players. These major turnarounds are more difficult than they seem.

We may not have a complete coach in DM, but I think his in game coaching problems are very correctable. Recruiting is more of a concern in my book, but I'm not throwing in the towel on him just yet. Especially given our freshmen.

Pearl has a better winning percentage than DM in his first two years in both overall record and in conference. Also, he has won three games on the road in conference and made it to the SEC Tournament semifinals in which he lost to #1 Kentucky. Pearl has shown major sparks while DM has shown he can get clowned by Delaware State.

 

[pourdeac]

How are "his players" going to resolve piss-poor in-game coaching decisions, mind-boggling substitution patterns and defenses that are almost always out of position?

IMO Manning is trying to establish a practice standard (best practice people play) and a 8-9 man rotation. I don't think we had good enough players to go that deep but he did it anyway, and part of the rotation "issue" was rewarding players down the talent ladder because they practiced well. Given the collapse when CMM came back and talk of the team no longer buying in...it's pretty obvious that team leadership was a huge issue and that contributed to all of those problems. I think Manning's recruits are fundamentally better as well....just look at the FT numbers.

With a deeper team of "Manning" players I think the rotations will be better because of better top to bottom talent. There won't be as many holes. With good team floor leaders like Crawford, we won't see the team not buy-in...leading to better practice habits, on floor decisions and better D. That's an optimistic, hopeful view but I think it's also pretty realistic. We were in a deeper hole than I thought. Howland was my choice. Not sure he'd be doing much better.

 

[Demonwolverine]

Pearl has a better winning percentage than DM in his first two years in both overall record and in conference. Also, he has won three games on the road in conference and made it to the SEC Tournament semifinals in which he lost to #1 Kentucky. Pearl has shown major sparks while DM has shown he can get clowned by Delaware State.

We're ranked higher in RPI. And I hate to even argue it, but come on. The SEC is not the ACC. Of course, I guess you could use that to argue that DM deserves to be the coach of a middle of the road SEC team, but now we're just talking semantics. My point was that even a guy like Pearl, who is a very well rounded coach (recruiting, pre game, in game and politician), can have trouble righting the ship.

 

[Shake]

Howland, Buzz and a host of others would be doing better. Its not so much this season's results as based on the last 2 years how do you feel about the next 3 years.

Do you believe this year's freshman class will ever play in an NCAA tournament? I say no but if you believe yes then they'll need to be at least the 8th pace team...tell me who finishes behind us.

 

[buckets]

I mean we got much much worse as the season went on

That makes me question any talent excuses

 

[Demonwolverine]

I mean we got much much worse as the season went on

That makes me question any talent excuses

Meh. I know it's crazy to look back and think that we beat the #1 team in the Big 10, but I'm not convinced that we necessarily got worse as the season went on. The way I see it:

Who got worse? Dinos' and Wilbekin's shots disappeared, but I'm not sure how that is Manning's fault. I thought they both did a much better job defensively and Dinos even started to show a flash of grit on the boards towards the end. Crawford started playing much better on the ball defense. Collins' defense improved as well as his dribble drive. It's hard to say whether Moore progressed but I think everyone is excited about his potential. Rondale was playing smarter, more composed ball. I also think that team defense will be much better without DT next year. He rebounded well at the expense of not contesting shots. Not to say that strategy doesn't have it's advantages considering DT was not a shot blocker and it usually leads to fewer offensive rebounds for the opponent, but give me a rim protector like Moore any day.

We lost games, and in the end, that's the bottom line. We clearly have a lot of work to do in the last 4 minutes of games. That's impossible to deny. Several games were lost in the last 4 - 5 minutes. Some of that was definitely coaching, some of it was youth, and some of it was a lack of depth. I see all 3 of those as correctable over the next year or 2.

 

[Shake]

Help me understand how we correct youth next year...youth will be the first excuse DM and RW trot out once we start losing.

 

[pourdeac]

Howland, Buzz and a host of others would be doing better. Its not so much this season's results as based on the last 2 years how do you feel about the next 3 years.

Do you believe this year's freshman class will ever play in an NCAA tournament? I say no but if you believe yes then they'll need to be at least the 8th pace team...tell me who finishes behind us.

IMO all 3 frosh have NBA potential so sure, I think if they develop like that plus Woods they'll get into the tourny. Those 4 should be pretty damn good by the time they're seniors.

Buzz brought in those 2 transfers in right out of the gate which is why they played so well. They became the team leaders. I'm not sure that would or could have happened at Wake given DT and CMM. Howland may have dealt with Bz players better because of his track record..or maybe not. Hard to say. We wouldn't suddenly be a better FT shooting team because of a different coach.

IMO the team dynamic won't be as f'd up next year either, that's for sure....ie they will be easier to coach.

 

[RaleighTriad]

We're ranked higher in RPI. And I hate to even argue it, but come on. The SEC is not the ACC. Of course, I guess you could use that to argue that DM deserves to be the coach of a middle of the road SEC team, but now we're just talking semantics. My point was that even a guy like Pearl, who is a very well rounded coach (recruiting, pre game, in game and politician), can have trouble righting the ship.

I can see your point about SEC vs ACC and apples vs oranges, but blanket conference comparison without taking into consideration the schools each coach is coaching at skews it in our favor and makes Manning look better than what he actually is. Coaching and rebuilding at Wake should be easier than Auburn. We are a basketball school with some tradition and two players currently in the NBA that everyone knows about. Auburn, minus a fairly new stadium, has no tradition, no NBA players, and is located in the heart of a football crazed state in which nobody cares about basketball.

Looking at that, why is Wake Forest such a hard rebuild job? Inside the ACC you are telling me that Miami, FSU, Georgia Tech, Clemson, Virginia Tech are easier rebuild jobs? Comparing us to Miami, a broke school in a crime ridden city, who might be competing for another ACC championship this weekend while we are stuck at home is a better job? Lets be honest, Wake is a tough rebuild job due to academics (especially Tuesday) but we should at least be competitive and competent as opposed to what we have seen for the past 6 years.

 

[pourdeac]

Help me understand how we correct youth next year...youth will be the first excuse DM and RW trot out once we start losing.

You can't correct it, that's just the reality of the situation...and part of the massive Bz hole. We'll be a pretty young team again, with the best players as sophs. What's Manning supposed to do? Speed up time?