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Official Election Month Thread: COUP falls short, nothing to see here

WakeBored said:
I disagree. I think there are enough pub congresspeople who are uneasy enough with this as it is—a stunt—that they wouldn’t go along if there were an actual chance that it could overturn the election. There are some pubs who are true believers, to be sure, but the vast majority of pubs don’t actually want Trump to retain the White House if it means there will literally be blood in the streets.

In any event, we won’t get to find out, because neither the house nor the senate is going to vote to overturn the election.
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The main reason those Pubs don't want to do it is because it wouldn't work. They'd be all in for it if it could. Your post is like saying a coach who doesn't want to go for on 4th and 15 from their own 20 wouldn't go for it on 4th and inches from the opponent's 35.
 
Ryan was more liked by the Tea Party wing though.

Romney’s primary campaign was struggling before he got the Trump endorsement. I don’t think seeking the endorsement of the head birther was honorable.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Republican State Senate Majority in Pennsylvania refusing to swear in a Democratic Senator - certified winner, because the Republican candidate who lost refuses to concede.
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Junebug thinks this is just a show for Trump and not his party. This is your party. Republicans do not accept the certified results of elections.
 
WakeBored said:
Depends on what you mean by normal.

House Dems objected to Florida’s slate of electors in W’s victory in 2001, Ohio’s slate in W’s victory in 2005, and, as I understand it, several states’ slates in Trump’s victory in 2017. In 2005, Barbara Boxer joined the objection in the Senate, which required the objection be voted on by the full Congress. In the vote, 31 house Dems voted to reject Ohio’s electors, as did Boxer.

So, yes, there is recent precedent for challenging election results in Congress. In fact, house Dems objected in all 3 of the Pubs’ most recent election wins, and one such challenged required a vote. The challenge that is coming tomorrow is different in degree, in that many more congresspeople will join in, but similar in kind.

And for the record, I think all of the challenges I’ve discussed—including the one that will come tomorrow—were (are) flawed, irresponsible, anti-democratic, harmful to the institutions of Congress and the Presidency, and, likely, unconstitutional.
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Normally I would not equate ~12 members of the Democratic caucus delaying congressional proceedings for 20 minutes (an election that Gore would have won if the full hand recount had been completed) with 140 House Republicans and ~10 GOP senators (one of those house republicans openly calling for people to take to the streets) and the actual President trying to coerce the secretary of State of Georgia into "finding" 11780 votes to over turn the election. Normally.

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/07/us/over-some-objections-congress-certifies-electoral-vote.html
Today, for nearly 20 minutes in the cavernous House chamber, a dozen members of the Congressional Black Caucus, joined by a few sympathizers, tried in vain to block the counting of Florida's 25 electoral votes, protesting that black voters had been disenfranchised.
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I also normally would not equate some house democrats and one senator objecting to Ohio's 2004 election on the floor while admitting their purpose was only to promote election reform with 140 House Republicans and ~10 GOP senators (one of those house republicans openly calling for people to take to the streets) and the actual President trying to coerce the secretary of State of Georgia into "finding" 11780 votes to over turn the election. Normally.

https://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/electoral.vote.1718/
The move was not designed to overturn the re-election of President Bush, said Ohio Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones and California Sen. Barbara Boxer, who filed the objection.

The objecting Democrats, most of whom are House members, said they wanted to draw attention to the need for aggressive election reform in the wake of what they said were widespread voter problems.
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WakeBored said:
Romney / Ryan was an honorable ticket
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If Obama hadn't stolen Romeny's Massachusetts Republican health care plan, maybe they would have won. Honestly kind of wish they had at this point. We got very little out of Obama's second term, and maybe the GOP would not have gone so far right into crazy town if Romney and Ryan were in the white house.
 
birdman said:
Normally I would not equate ~12 members of the Democratic caucus delaying congressional proceedings for 20 minutes (an election that Gore would have won if the full hand recount had been completed) with 140 House Republicans and ~10 GOP senators (one of those house republicans openly calling for people to take to the streets) and the actual President trying to coerce the secretary of State of Georgia into "finding" 11780 votes to over turn the election. Normally.

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/07/us/over-some-objections-congress-certifies-electoral-vote.html


I also normally would not equate some house democrats and one senator objecting to Ohio's 2004 election on the floor while admitting their purpose was only to promote election reform with 140 House Republicans and ~10 GOP senators (one of those house republicans openly calling for people to take to the streets) and the actual President trying to coerce the secretary of State of Georgia into "finding" 11780 votes to over turn the election. Normally.

https://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/electoral.vote.1718/
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And you would not do those things, Birdman, because you're not a disengenous hack like some other posters might be.
 
birdman said:
Normally I would not equate ~12 members of the Democratic caucus delaying congressional proceedings for 20 minutes (an election that Gore would have won if the full hand recount had been completed) with 140 House Republicans and ~10 GOP senators (one of those house republicans openly calling for people to take to the streets) and the actual President trying to coerce the secretary of State of Georgia into "finding" 11780 votes to over turn the election. Normally.

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/07/us/over-some-objections-congress-certifies-electoral-vote.html


I also normally would not equate some house democrats and one senator objecting to Ohio's 2004 election on the floor while admitting their purpose was only to promote election reform with 140 House Republicans and ~10 GOP senators (one of those house republicans openly calling for people to take to the streets) and the actual President trying to coerce the secretary of State of Georgia into "finding" 11780 votes to over turn the election. Normally.

https://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/electoral.vote.1718/
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You’re moving the goalposts again. Your original question to me was whether what congress was doing was “normal.” I said, yes, in kind, albeit not in scope. Regardless, it was a stunt when the Dems did it in 2001, 2005, and 2017, and it will be a stunt when the Pubs do it tomorrow.

Your post above discusses Trump’s call to the GA SOS. That is most certainly not normal, at least in Presidential politics. It is normal for Trump—it strikes me as awfully similar to his call to Zelensky—but not for presidents generally.
 
WakeBored said:
You’re moving the goalposts again. Your original question to me was whether what congress was doing was “normal.” I said, yes, in kind, albeit not in scope. Regardless, it was a stunt when the Dems did it in 2001, 2005, and 2017, and it will be a stunt when the Pubs do it tomorrow.

Your post above discusses Trump’s call to the GA SOS. That is most certainly not normal, at least in Presidential politics. It is normal for Trump—it strikes me as awfully similar to his call to Zelensky—but not for presidents generally.
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I’m not moving the goal post. I asked the question if 140 republicans openly objecting to the decisive and overwhelming election results with the intent to over turn the election was normal. You cited two cases from the Dems that were minuscule by comparison and from the beginning, at least in one case, were openly about making a point not changing the outcome. Almost the entirety of the GOP is acting outside the norm. Your party is thoroughly fucked up.
 
Official Election Month Thread: Trump actively manipulating election results

WakeBored said:
If I didn’t disagree with you, I would have left the party a long time ago.
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Jamelle Bouie said it better than I could

It’s a story of escalation, from the relentless obstruction of the Gingrich era to the effort to impeach Bill Clinton to the attempt to nullify the presidency of Barack Obama and on to the struggle, however doomed, to keep Joe Biden from ever sitting in the White House as president. It also goes beyond national politics. In 2016, after a Democrat, Roy Cooper, defeated the Republican incumbent Pat McCrory for the governorship of North Carolina, the state’s Republican legislature promptly stripped the office of power and authority. Wisconsin Republicans did the same in 2018 after Tony Evers unseated Scott Walker in his bid for a third term. And Michigan Republicans took similar steps against another Democrat, Gretchen Whitmer, after her successful race for the governor’s mansion.

Considered in the context of a 30-year assault on the legitimacy of Democratic leaders and Democratic constituencies (of which Republican-led voter suppression is an important part), the present attempt to disrupt and derail the certification of electoral votes is but the next step, in which Republicans say, outright, that a Democrat has no right to hold power and try to make that reality. The next Democrat to win the White House — whether it’s Biden getting re-elected or someone else winning for the first time — will almost certainly face the same flood of accusations, challenges and lawsuits, on the same false grounds of “fraud.”
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/...e-elections.html?referringSource=articleShare
 
BeachBumDeac said:
Jamelle Bouie said it better than I could



https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/...e-elections.html?referringSource=articleShare
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Yep. We have a reached a point where Republicans are so frightened by, and resentful of, Democrats that they are increasingly willing to take extreme measures to prevent them from ever holding power. It's actually a logical progression of the devolution of the GOP that we've been witnessing for at least the past two decades (probably longer.) Democrats aren't Real Americans, or just fellow citizens with different views, they're a mortal enemy that must be crushed and kept from holding office and enacting their hideous anti-American agenda, no matter the cost. And more and more Republicans - in public office, the news and social media, and the base - are following along. They won't win this year, but the precedent has been set.
 
Not going to lie, there's definitely a part of me that really wants to see Pence pull some crazy-ass mix of Joffrey announcing Ned Stark's execution and Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy by naming Donald Trump the winner, banging the gavel real fast then bolting out of the room.

Assuming it doesn't actually mean anything of course...
 
birdman said:
If Obama hadn't stolen Romeny's Massachusetts Republican health care plan, maybe they would have won. Honestly kind of wish they had at this point. We got very little out of Obama's second term, and maybe the GOP would not have gone so far right into crazy town if Romney and Ryan were in the white house.
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GOP is always moving right.
 
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