Should Obama compromise/negotiate with the Tea Party?

[BeachBumDeac]

Let me get this straight: you're arguing that "Everyone that doesn't agree with me is dumb!" and citing "Failures to denounce!" as affirmative evidence of consent....and I'm the one posting "shit"? Have I got that right? If so, a hearty and sincere GFY.

what the fuck are you talking about? Where did I say anything like that?

You have offered no opinions of your own (only condescension and pseudo-trolling). So you can't really be surprised when other people make assumptions as to what your opinions are

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

No, he shouldn't negotiate, his position is the correct one (as much as I hate Obamacare). That said, he needs to recognize that the Republicans in Congress are too stupid to back down in this situation, so he needs to have contingency plans in place for when a default occurs. He needs to get out ahead of this thing and explain to Americans, in advance, exactly what he is going to do (not what somebody else is not doing) to mitigate the damages as much as possible when a default occurs. He won't, but he should. He will just stand there bitching about how it is somebody else's fault, like he got caught with his pants down on something that everyone has known is coming for weeks.

ETA: to Numbers' point, that is what a real leader would do. Yes, Obama is an awful leader, and he will botch this as he has almost everything else. Note, I'm not saying that this is his fault, it isn't, but a good leader would push through this as best as possible, whereas Obama will likely just continue the blame game while everything crumbles around him.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

No, he shouldn't negotiate, his position is the correct one (as much as I hate Obamacare). That said, he needs to recognize that the Republicans in Congress are too stupid to back down in this situation, so he needs to have contingency plans in place for when a default occurs. He needs to get out ahead of this thing and explain to Americans, in advance, exactly what he is going to do (not what somebody else is not doing) to mitigate the damages as much as possible when a default occurs. He won't, but he should. He will just stand there bitching about how it is somebody else's fault, like he got caught with his pants down on something that everyone has known is coming for weeks.

lol.

"I agree with Obama and he's right here. But he's still stupid and he sucks and I hate him"

 

[Wakeforest22890]

I don't envy Obama's position right now. People normally tend to evaluate decisions as if the decisions were based upon rational actors. The GOP is an entirely irrational actor so it's difficult for Obama to react in an appropriate manner to fit the situation. The general public will see this, and even if none of it is Obama's fault - which I maintain it really isn't, and perhaps look at Obama through the lens of what he should have done if the GOP was in fact rational.

This is where Obama should use some of the political shrewdness he displayed while campaigning and positioning himself well for the presidency to get out ahead of this one and make the GOP look like the damn fools they are. I don't know the best way to do this, but I'm also not on the staff for the president or the leader of the free world like Obama is.

 

[jhmd2000]

what the fuck are you talking about? Where did I say anything like that?

You have offered no opinions of your own (only condescension and pseudo-trolling). So you can't really be surprised when other people make assumptions as to what your opinions are

Yes or no: you believe Ph's post I responded to immediately above is a fair characterization?

I will agree that I'm not surprised you guys pretend to know what other people are thinking, but perhaps not for reasons that you think.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

Yes or no: you believe Ph's post I responded to immediately above is a fair characterization?

I will agree that I'm not surprised you guys pretend to know what other people are thinking, but perhaps not for reasons that you think.

If someone is wrong about your opinion, then tell them what is wrong about their characterization. It doesn't help further the conversation at all if you just say "You're an idiot and you're wrong."

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

lol.

"I agree with Obama and he's right here. But he's still stupid and he sucks and I hate him"

Ahh, I guess I should have stuck to the BBD position of "anyone I disagree with in politics is ALWAYS wrong, and we should never look at anything objectively". Honestly, it's morons like you why we are in this position. You are the flaming version of the Tea Party. I'm sure Mr. Bin Laden thanks you for your efforts from the bottom of the sea.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

Ahh, I guess I should have stuck to the BBD position of "anyone I disagree with in politics is ALWAYS wrong, and we should never look at anything objectively". Honestly, it's morons like you why we are in this position. You are the flaming version of the Tea Party. I'm sure Mr. Bin Laden thanks you for your efforts from the bottom of the sea.

I was more pointing out the fact that you agreed with Obama and thought he was doing the right thing, but you still had to work in a solid dig at him.

If you look back at the board, I've been pretty objective about Obama and his administration and didn't hesitate to point out shit I didn't like that they were doing

 

[ConnorEl]

The sad part is Republicans are now buying into all of this garbage.

"Look the world hasn't ended with this so-called 'shutdown'"

"It's not a real shutdown, only 20% of the workers are actually furloughed"

"How can the House be to blame? They tried to fund programs, but the big bad Senate shot every proposal down."

"Boehner wants to negotiate, it's the president's turn to step up to the plate and lead!"

The whole "Obama sucks as a leader" shit is overplayed. This is what the GOP turns to when they can't attack on substance or substantive matters with any credibility. Is there some validity to Obama being a poor leader? Sure, there probably is. Is this an instance of that? Absolutely not. Furthermore it's an attack which is almost impossible to refute because of the totally subjective nature of the claim. I mean what metrics do you use to objectively determine if someone is a good leader or not? If someone actually does in fact bring substance to the table and refute the notion then the goal posts can easily be moved because being a "good" leader can be different for nearly anybody. It's a claim that lacks real substance and can be repeated as a criticism without a big to do.

It's cynical and dishonest political theater. And, hopefully, so transparent that it will fail miserably.

 

[jhmd2000]

If someone is wrong about your opinion, then tell them what is wrong about their characterization. It doesn't help further the conversation at all if you just say "You're an idiot and you're wrong."

Wait, you're telling me this on a board where we have a thread on the front page that says "Everyone in {Party A} is dumb"? Like...in writing, where people can read it?

It's worth noting that I told Ph that he was stereotyping (and in an unnecessary answer to your unsolicited input, did in fact point out the flaws in his reasoning), and he all but admitted it by changing the labels (conceding it was a clear case of "groupthink" on the part of the conservatives....blissfully unaware that he was guilty of "groupthink about alleged groupthink" at best, or stereotyping, in reality). I pointed out the rather self-evident flaws in his lazy reasoning. You decided that this couldn't possibly be my idea (basis...pending) and decided that you simply could not resist intervening to tell everyone this, and also, that he was to be forgiven because I had failed to denounce certain policy proposals (which if you just groupthink hard enough, amounts to consent and ratification. Delightful).

 

[BeachBumDeac]

Wait, you're telling me this on a board where we have a thread on the front page that says "Everyone in {Party A} is dumb"? Like...in writing, where people can read it?

ETA: just saw 2&2's post. Well said, and I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing it. BBD, mirror, mirror, BBD.

I would check out who posted that thread, and the responses wherein.

But that might interfere with your massive martyr complex and might indicate to you that you're not nearly as persecuted on here as you think you are. Nope, we can't have that kind of self-reflection

 

[jhmd2000]

I would check out who posted that thread, and the responses wherein.

But that might interfere with your massive martyr complex and might indicate to you that you're not nearly as persecuted on here as you think you are. Nope, we can't have that kind of self-reflection

Fine advice if ever you've offered it.

Ahh, I guess I should have stuck to the BBD position of "anyone I disagree with in politics is ALWAYS wrong, and we should never look at anything objectively". Honestly, it's morons like you why we are in this position. You are the [[redacted]] version of the Tea Party. I'm sure Mr. Bin Laden thanks you for your efforts from the bottom of the sea.

 

[ConnorEl]

E.J. Dionne says Obama shouldn't waste this moment


Quote:
----------


WASHINGTON -- The key in politics is to snatch victory from the jaws of victory.

The senseless government shutdown has led to a rout of the tea party, right-wing extremism and a Republican leadership that was cowed into a march toward oblivion. But a great deal hangs on what happens next. Will this be a watershed moment? Or do we return to the same dreary politics we were having before this sorry episode?

What needs to happen is a sharp course correction -- from an agenda championed by the forces that were beaten in the last election to an engagement with the problems our nation must solve.

It would be an utter waste to revisit the obsessions of 2011 and the presumption that budget cutting and deficit reduction should be the sole priorities of the political class. Recall that Rep. Paul Ryan was the other member of the Republican ticket who lost last year. Ryan's proposal to slash spending played a central role in Mitt Romney's defeat.

The United States should build, not just cut. We should invest again in an infrastructure whose decayed condition ought to shame us. We should deal with high ongoing unemployment, reverse the rise of inequality, and give poor and working-class kids real opportunities for upward mobility...
----------

 

[jhmd2000]

E.J. Dionne says Obama shouldn't waste this moment


Quote:
----------


WASHINGTON -- The key in politics is to snatch victory from the jaws of victory.

The senseless government shutdown has led to a rout of the tea party, right-wing extremism and a Republican leadership that was cowed into a march toward oblivion. But a great deal hangs on what happens next. Will this be a watershed moment? Or do we return to the same dreary politics we were having before this sorry episode?

What needs to happen is a sharp course correction -- from an agenda championed by the forces that were beaten in the last election to an engagement with the problems our nation must solve.

It would be an utter waste to revisit the obsessions of 2011 and the presumption that budget cutting and deficit reduction should be the sole priorities of the political class. Recall that Rep. Paul Ryan was the other member of the Republican ticket who lost last year. Ryan's proposal to slash spending played a central role in Mitt Romney's defeat.

The United States should build, not just cut. We should invest again in an infrastructure whose decayed condition ought to shame us. We should deal with high ongoing unemployment, reverse the rise of inequality, and give poor and working-class kids real opportunities for upward mobility...
----------

Do you believe the average American voter is impacted by a shutdown of a subset of nonessential employees? Can you point to an impact in your life that has changed? What "moment" are we supposed to be feeling?

 

[Wakeforest22890]

I would wager that over half the country has been impacted in some way by the shutdown, maybe it is just an inconvenience to some, but I think most have at least seen some sort of result from the shutdown that maybe they didn't think about.

 

[jhmd2000]

I would wager that over half the country has been impacted in some way by the shutdown, maybe it is just an inconvenience to some, but I think most have at least seen some sort of result from the shutdown that maybe they didn't think about.

I'm curious: which half are you in? How?

I guess if you had the contract to cater the BLM's Columbus Day Party, you got kinda jammed...but I wonder if the Great, Evil, Tea Party Shutdown of 2013 is turning into kind of a meh moment. At some point, there are only so many WWII vets who have to get turned away from an open air space (which curiously enough, is unstaffed during regular business hours, but had to be staffed in order to be "Closed"). Again, what is this "moment"?

 

[RJKarl]

Everyone who adheres to the hardcore TP ideals is stupid, arrogant and has no clue how the US government and economy work.

 

[bcobbdeacs]

JH,
I have had two check delays because of the shutdown, there is an average American who has felt some impact from the shutdown. Further, it is my understanding that this process is forward moving in that the longer it goes on the more things and people will be effected.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

The sad part is Republicans are now buying into all of this garbage.

"Look the world hasn't ended with this so-called 'shutdown'"

"It's not a real shutdown, only 20% of the workers are actually furloughed"

I'm curious: which half are you in? How?

I guess if you had the contract to cater the BLM's Columbus Day Party, you got kinda jammed...but I wonder if the Great, Evil, Tea Party Shutdown of 2013 is turning into kind of a meh moment. At some point, there are only so many WWII vets who have to get turned away from an open air space (which curiously enough, is unstaffed during regular business hours, but had to be staffed in order to be "Closed"). Again, what is this "moment"?

See above.

Also I'm probably not a good example for this since I'm actually working for the federal government with a current internship and am also looking to do so in the spring, but a lot of the staff attorneys for the US attorneys office are either on rotation or furloughed as well as a large number of workers at the courthouse as of tomorrow.

 

[BarcaDeac]

I'm curious: which half are you in? How?

I guess if you had the contract to cater the BLM's Columbus Day Party, you got kinda jammed...but I wonder if the Great, Evil, Tea Party Shutdown of 2013 is turning into kind of a meh moment. At some point, there are only so many WWII vets who have to get turned away from an open air space (which curiously enough, is unstaffed during regular business hours, but had to be staffed in order to be "Closed"). Again, what is this "moment"?

for starters, I'd rather not risk food poisoning

http://gizmodo.com/the-fda-isnt-inspecting-food-during-the-government-shu-1441708627