Billboard Up Today

[TBR]

This is still fucking terrifying to me. An athletic director who objects to the recruitment of top talent is goddamn absurd. The replacement of Wellman is at this point far, far more important than the replacement of any one coach, Bz included.

Absolutely.

And, of course, if you think that's the model you should hire someone who has actually implemented it. E.g., Steve Donahue or Chris Mooney, either of whom should have been attainable by Wake.

 

[PhDeac]

"Most of the issues folks point to today actually occurred after Dino was terminated and Bz arrived."

Always bears repeating.

Baby, thanks for the run down.

 

[sailordeac]

Thanks for the very informative post, Baby. But even if we give Wellman the maximum benefit of the doubt by saying that things did not turn out as he imagined, we are still left with a series of difficult facts and questions. Wellman imposed a set of conditions on our basketball program that made it almost impossible to win. When he realized, which must have been early on, that in Buzz we had a coach with severe communications problems, which would prevent him from being an effective college basketball coach, why not cut the losses, admit the mistake, and move on? People would have forgiven Wellman at that point for his error, if he made a solid hire to replace Buzz. And that would have been a lot more realistic than expecting a winning program with a severely handicapped coach and an impossible set of conditions. Indeed, it would have been the fair thing to do for all concerned, the players, the fans, the entire Wake Forest community, and even Buzz. Instead, we got outrageous and arrogant displays of dishonesty, rejections of any accountability, and refusals to address honest concerns shared by virtually the entire Wake community and the national media as well. Ron Wellman made a huge mistake in hiring Jeff [Redacted]. But he made even bigger mistakes in retaining him and in the way in which he attempted to defend his obviously mistaken decision in the first place.

 

[jhmd2000]

Thanks for the very informative post, Baby. But even if we give Wellman the maximum benefit of the doubt by saying that things did not turn out as he imagined, we are still left with a series of difficult facts and questions. Wellman imposed a set of conditions on our basketball program that made it almost impossible to win. When he realized, which must have been early on, that in Buzz we had a coach with severe communications problems, which would prevent him from being an effective college basketball coach, why not cut the losses, admit the mistake, and move on? People would have forgiven Wellman at that point for his error, if he made a solid hire to replace Buzz. And that would have been a lot more realistic than expecting a winning program with a severely handicapped coach and an impossible set of conditions. Indeed, it would have been the fair thing to do for all concerned, the players, the fans, the entire Wake Forest community, and even Buzz. Instead, we got outrageous and arrogant displays of dishonesty, rejections of any accountability, and refusals to address honest concerns shared by virtually the entire Wake community and the national media as well. Ron Wellman made a huge mistake in hiring Jeff [Redacted]. But he made even bigger mistakes in retaining him and in the way in which he attempted to defend his obviously mistaken decision in the first place.

Good post. I would add that if Ron was actually responding to the facts on the ground and even, assuming his continued refusal to recognize his mistake and replace the head coach, he would at least fix in place by adding people who have strong college basketball coaching backgrounds as his assistants. Ron has basically tied two Wake Forest legends to the mast of his sinking ship as a way to insure that----whatever the results on the court----his guy sticks around as long as possible. He is in a committed relationship with his own ideas. He has done great things for this University, but everyone's time comes eventually. Don't be the absolute last to know, Ron.

 

[jaybone]

I absolutely disagree w the last two posts. After you fire a guy after 3 years w 60+ wins - as AD you absolutely have to be patient. The hire after bzd / assuming he never succeeds here - is the most important hire you'll make since grobe. Maybe of your entire tenure.

As we have discussed before few coaches and no elite or hot coach is gonna take this job if the last two coaches both got the quick hook.

By publicly saying you want culture change you are essentially binding your own hands thru 4 or 5 years. The fanbase's mistake was not realizing this and sitting on our hands up until the end of last year IMO. You can be angry about the hire but then we should have let it go. But that became impossible after losing to Stetson and presby and all those shit schools in year 1. I personally thought he was trying to teach a lesson on how to play team ball but it was arrogant to do it to us. By the middle of year 1 we were actually playing better as a team. But our talent level was just too putrid to beat anybody in the acc. And that set off a chain reaction of things which brings us today.

Bottom line though is we are 4-0. Bzd outers have to sit on their hands now until the wheels come off again. It's bad form not to. If you don't you are the lunatic fringe red on brown graph people. Hard as it may be. Over the next two seasons either you are going to win or wellman is. My money is on wellman. Especially it his adversary is basically Palma or Rj or Stratton.

You can't shit on center court when we are 4-0. Especially after brown graphing your last effort. I won't lie. I take great schadenfreude in all this. But the truth is we are going to be pretty good the next three years. Unless we suffer a slew of injuries or transfers. I personally factoring out my schadenfreude am not happy about that truth but I think it is more than likely. And bottom line I like the players haven't liked a team like this since jj and Teague. Happy for that

 

[bigdoublezero]

The reasons have been addressed before. Why not review them on page 74 of this thread?

Dino was not fired for one simple single event. It was a culmination of issues and a final impetus that resulted in the decision to terminate. The underlying factors included poor post-season results his last two years and not being personally and philosophically in tune with his boss. The catalysis for change was RW directing Dino to change recruiting focus away from highly rated players who might leave after a year or two and to go after more traditional “student-athletes” who might stick around for three or four years and thrive with an emphasis on experience and team play. RW saw that model in a few programs he scouted for the NCAA committee and decided that’s what he wanted at Wake. Dino objected and felt that to compete for championships he needed the freedom to recruit whomever he felt was appropriate, including the top talent.

In a power struggle with a boss who is not solidly in your corner, the subordinate is not likely to survive. However, a HC who capitulates to directives limiting his ability to compete as he sees fit is not going to be successful either.

It is easier to say what was not happening. Dino had not lost control of his team. It was difficult to replace Skip and go from assistant to HC. He was fired before he could ever coach a team that had not entered with him as an assistant. Certainly that was a factor, but he had not lost the respect or control of the players as some would like to suggest.

Dino and RW were like oil and water ... in so many ways. Neither was comfortable with the other. RW did not like Dino, for reasons that are unnecessary to discuss at this point. The contract extension was clearly for show so other coaches couldnt use it to suggest to HS juniors that the WF coach who is recruiting them wont be around for their full time at Wake. However, I firmly believe that the decision to terminate Dino was made and the trigger pulled very quickly once the recruiting issue arose. This opinion is reinforced by RW congratulating Dino after the Texas game and telling him that he was pleased with the job he was doing. Maybe it was the Sicilian Kiss of Death.

The "culture change" crap is revisionist BS as interpreted by most. The only "culture change" was to not pursue one-and-done talent. It had nothing to do with character issues per se. A series of issues arose (all distinct in very important ways) that were made public to varying degrees. The entire truth is still not known about a few of them. Please do not be naive enough to believe that there have not been similar situations over the years ... they just were not made public. We are only aware of what "the powers that be" want to let us know.

JJ was a poster boy for the change RW wanted. JJ was clear that he was here to play basketball for one or two years, and school was not a focus for him. Ari was over his head academically. RW did not want Wake to recruit either type of player. BTW, both are really good guys. Tabb is another case entirely. Most of the issues folks point to today actually occurred after Dino was terminated and Bz arrived.

Probably most importantly, if we had been successful in the post-season (ACC and/or NCAA) none of this would have ever happened. I love Wake Forest. It is great to believe that we are special and hold ourselves to a higher standard (and I believe we do and am proud of it). There have been no allegations of cheating or NCAA violations. However, do not think for one minute that if we had won an ACC title or advanced to a Final Four that any of these "culture changes" would have ever seen the light of day.

Finally, we have no idea what transpired in the coaching search. If anyone other than RW himself tells you otherwise, cast a jaundiced eye in his or her direction. I just cant believe it turned out the way RW envisioned.

For posterity.

 

[bigdoublezero]

I absolutely disagree w the last two posts. After you fire a guy after 3 years w 60+ wins - as AD you absolutely have to be patient. The hire after bzd / assuming he never succeeds here - is the most important hire you'll make since grobe. Maybe of your entire tenure.

As we have discussed before few coaches and no elite or hot coach is gonna take this job if the last two coaches both got the quick hook.

By publicly saying you want culture change you are essentially binding your own hands thru 4 or 5 years. The fanbase's mistake was not realizing this and sitting on our hands up until the end of last year IMO. You can be angry about the hire but then we should have let it go. But that became impossible after losing
to Stetson and presby and all those shit schools in year 1. I personally thought he was trying to teach a lesson on how to play team ball but it was arrogant to do it to us. By th
e middle of year 1 we were actually playing better as a team. But our talent level was just too putrid to beat

anybody in the acc. And that set off a chain reaction of things which brings us today.

Bottom line though is we are 4-0. Bzd outers have to sit on their hands now until the wheels come off again. It's bad form not to. If you don't you are the lunatic fringe red on brown graph people. Hard as it may be. Over the next two seasons either you are going to win or wellman is. My money is on wellman. Especially it his adversary is basically Palma or Rj or Stratton.

You can't shit on center court when we are 4-0. Especially after brown graphing your last effort. I won't lie. I take great schadenfreude in all this. But the truth is we are going to be pretty good the next three years. Unless we suffer a slew of injuries or transfers. I personally factoring out my schadenfreude am not happy about that truth but I think it is more than likely. And bottom line I like the players haven't liked a team like this since jj and Teague. Happy for that

Nearly everything about this post is wrong.

 

[DCDeac]

Great post BabyDeac.

As a completely random aside, I got a letter today from myself. I sent it during one of those leadership development conference things for work. One of the exercises was to write yourself a letter that addresses your biggest concerns at the time and checks up on how you're doing with them a couple years later. Here's how mine started:

"Has [Redacted] been fired yet? Has to be, right? In the unthinkable future world in which [Redacted] remains the leader of the basketball program at Wake Forest as you read this, I apologize for bringing up what must be a truly depressing thought. Hopefully there are no weapons, lengths of rope, knives, or otherwise suicide-enabling objects nearby. In the event that he has been fired, I hope you've blocked off the second weekend of the NCAA tournament for a road trip, because after this amount of suffering Wake has to be due for something good to happen."

So that was kind of a bummer.

 

[deaclite]

I wonder if BabyDeac has faced any personal retribution for posting info. on here? These guys seem capable of serious misdeeds.

 

[wake20]

Thanks, Baby. Amazing that going to the tournament with good guys who are entirely focused on basketball is less desirable than failing with good guys who either leave the program to escape an awful situation or stick around to win 13 games per year. At least they'll earn their degrees because that's their only option! We can't have any Chris Paul types who become our biggest alumni star and come back to earn the degree years later.

 

[DCDeac]

Thanks, Baby. Amazing that going to the tournament with good guys who are entirely focused on basketball is less desirable than failing with good guys who either leave the program to escape an awful situation or stick around to win 13 games per year. At least they'll earn their degrees because that's their only option! We can't have any Chris Paul types who become our biggest alumni star and come back to earn the degree years later.

This is such bullshit.

 

[wake20]

which part?

 

[deaconson]

In a power struggle with a boss who is not solidly in your corner, the subordinate is not likely to survive. However, a HC who capitulates to directives limiting his ability to compete as he sees fit is not going to be successful either.

thanks for the post. i agree with this sentiment and found the the bold sentence pretty interesting considering wellman forced bzz to take dino's assistants. seems like it's another, though subtle, verification that wellman wanted dino doing things his way and when dino disagreed he was fired.

 

[deaconson]

You can't shit on center court when we are 4-0.

disagree almost entirely with your post. especially this. wellman shit on dino, the program and fans when he hired [Redacted]. he continues to shit on the fans every chance he gets. he does not get a pass. bzz... i can't fault him for taking the job. only question i have is has he always known he was getting out of town right before his smoke and mirrors failed him or does he really believe he has had a successful career in any measurable statistic. other than cash. he keeps fleecing people into hiring and paying him large sums of money.

 

[deacz]

I wonder if BabyDeac has faced any personal retribution for posting info. on here? These guys seem capable of serious misdeeds.

What misdeeds have they committed against "leakers" recently? Would love to hear this.

 

[deacz]

Dino's youngest daughter was finishing her freshman year at Wake when he was terminated. Dino had befriended Bz while Bz was still at CO, helping with Bz's daughter's transition to college life at Wake Forest. At his request, Dino's daughter agreed to room with her because she hadnt found someone to live with as a sophomore. After the termination, Dino's daughter said she couldnt live with her, but they could switch and be suitemates. A very difficult but gracious compromise for Dino's daughter.

BTW, that rumor about Dino pressuring professors for grades is ridiculous.

Of all things. This story just gets weirder.

 

[deacfan78]

BTW, that rumor about Dino pressuring professors for grades is ridiculous.

What about the others?

 

[jaybone]

Nearly everything about this post is wrong.

Succinct counter I'll give you that. But again if the steel cage match is wellman vs. stratt or Rj or Palma or phdeac or even all of them combined my money is on wellman in a slaughter. Red on brown cannot be undone

 

[DCDeac]

BabyDeac,
Do you have any idea whether the recruiting change was totally a Ron thing or if it was pushed by admissions and Hatch/faculty? Obviously this shift has occurred during some efforts at moving Wake up in the rankings nationally along with some significant changes in admissions policies. Plus there were more rumors of favors/leniency for athletes in the years before [Redacted]'s hiring which I'm sure pissed off faculty. Ron really did seem to love Skip and the job he did, so it doesn't make that much sense that he'd stray from that formula entirely on his own just because Dino didn't win with guys "majoring in the NBA."

 

[qcdeac]

Dino's youngest daughter was finishing her freshman year at Wake when he was terminated. Dino had befriended Bz while Bz was still at CO, helping with Bz's daughter's transition to college life at Wake Forest. At his request, Dino's daughter agreed to room with her because she hadnt found someone to live with as a sophomore. After the termination, Dino's daughter said she couldnt live with her, but they could switch and be suitemates. A very difficult but gracious compromise for Dino's daughter.

BTW, that rumor about Dino pressuring professors for grades is ridiculous.

Did Bz's daughter start at Wake or transfer in from CO after her freshman year? If she couldn't find someone to live with after freshman year at Wake, her Dad's personality must have rubbed off on her.

So basically he was like every other helicopter parent of a college kid?

Maybe times have changed, but I wouldn't think this would happen often at Wake.