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islam

riscdeac said:
Oh yea, I’ve seen you in Penn Station near the ticket booth. I always drop a few bucks in your can and remind you to get to get to one of the many shelters for a meal and some help. There is a better way.
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Nothing you say makes any sense.
 
riscdeac said:
Sarcasm. Sorry.

Self interest - To seek a desirable, safe environment to raise your family vs taking a vow of poverty?

There are many ministries within an active parish. Parish outreach, food and meals, youth service ministry, bereavement, depression counseling, alcohol and drugs, adopt a family, home visits, respit services.

Parish outreach - parishioners reach out to low income communities. Food, clothes, recreation, tutoring, donations, housing.
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Sure. I'm not saying that the suburbs are devoid of anything good. I'm not even saying that living in the suburbs is bad (although it is a bit of a self-separation from others that does breed that NIMBY attitude you mentioned and contributes to a lack of empathy for others if you don't actively push against this and seek connection with others). It isn't a statement of judgment on those that live there. I don't think that the only expression of Christianity is a vow of poverty or anything like that.

One can obviously follow Christ in the suburbs, and churches can thrive in the suburbs, just that it can also lull us into a sense of complacency/self focus because of the cultural values I listed (not saying that other places don't have there own unique barriers). Churches, such as your local parish, have those ministries to both reach out to others in love and to empower us to reorient ourselves toward others (which is counter-cultural). These ministries exist because the church at its best exists to push back on the culture of self-interest, leading us to emulate Jesus.
 
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Lectro said:
I am sure I have interacted much more often than you have
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I honestly doubt that. As both a pastor and as someone who works with refugees, I have pretty significant ties to people of the Muslim faith from Somalia, Sudan, Eritrea, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Thailand, and Iran - both newcomers and those who have been established in the US for decades, bringing a broad perspective to their faith and its expression in various cultures. Through this work, I've developed some pretty close ties to the Islamic center in Greensboro and Clemmons. I work with them, have them as clients, and have them as friends who get together fairly often.

I ask the question not out of some "gotcha moment," but generally wondering where your perspective comes from. In pretty much all of my conversations with them, the most "fundamentalist" Muslims that I know speak very similarly about faith, conversion, and politics as many Southern Baptists I know (and that's not a shot at Southern Baptists - I went to a Southern Baptist seminary and was ordained in an SBC church). Yes, they view Islam as the one true religion and desire everyone they know to follow Islam, but I would not characterize it as inherently violent.

You may point to certain passages in the Quran, but the Canaanite genocide passages in Joshua use similar language.
 
I doubt that Thunder - I lived for 3 years in the primarily Muslim suburb of Bron, outside of Lyon, France.

My interaction with Muslims from the Ivory Coast to all parts of North Africa to Madagascar was extensive and a daily affair
 
IamThunderbolt said:
For sailor and lectro, how many Muslims do you know? How many have you talked to about politics, their beliefs, and how those interact?
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As I have noted before, I know, and have known, quite a few Muslims. Just to underscore the point, right before I came home, the last person I had a conversation with of any length or seriousness was a Muslim. On my way home, I stopped in a business, owned and operated by Muslims, and made several purchases.

A great deal of the problems connected with Islam and the integration of Muslims into western society were first raised to me by Muslims, who, by the way, unlike the leftys on these boards, don't seem to have any difficulties thinking critically about their faith and its problems or talking about them, even with non-Muslims such as me.

The presumption behind your question, Thunderbolt, is that being critical of Islam must be based on ignorance of Islam. That presumption is simply wrong. The real problem is not with recognizing some of the problems connected with Islam and with the difficulties of co-existence between Muslim and western communities but with the refusal to talk honestly about them, indeed, the refusal to talk about them at all, especially in order to sacrifice on the altar of identity politics, a misbegotten and dangerous idea if there ever was one.
 
Let's think about this...whom should we consider rational and intelligent about Islam? On one hand we have Thunderbolt, a pastor and a person who has done many outreaches to people with one major purpose- to help them or sailor's overt bigotry and lectro...

Hmmmm...this is tough...almost as tough as deciding whether to chug a glass of hemlock or a glass of milk...
 
sailordeac said:
As I have noted before, I know, and have known, quite a few Muslims. Just to underscore the point, right before I came home, the last person I had a conversation with of any length or seriousness was a Muslim. On my way home, I stopped in a business, owned and operated by Muslims, and made several purchases.

A great deal of the problems connected with Islam and the integration of Muslims into western society were first raised to me by Muslims, who, by the way, unlike the leftys on these boards, don't seem to have any difficulties thinking critically about their faith and its problems or talking about them, even with non-Muslims such as me.

The presumption behind your question, Thunderbolt, is that being critical of Islam must be based on ignorance of Islam. That presumption is simply wrong. The real problem is not with recognizing some of the problems connected with Islam and with the difficulties of co-existence between Muslim and western communities but with the refusal to talk honestly about them, indeed, the refusal to talk about them at all, especially in order to sacrifice on the altar of identity politics, a misbegotten and dangerous idea if there ever was one.
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Thanks for both of your responses.

You're right, my presumption was that both your and lectro's opinion about Muslims was based not on relationships, but second hand knowledge or, at best, proximity. I agree, there is much to be discussed and worked out regarding how one lives with adherence to faith and within a diverse country (especially when one's predisposition is to want a country's laws to mirror the laws of your faith, irrespective of others in the country - a question that should be posed to Christian, Muslim, or any faith).

I don't think any faith is above critique, and having a reductive "all are good or bad" discussion isn't helpful, which what tends to happen here. Honestly, both for Christianity and Islam, the best critique comes from within the community rather than without. Maybe you have not been doing this, but most of what bumps this thread is of the "See, I told you Muslims are bad" variety - without nuance or discussion (or even, let's talk about difficulties of merging/integrating cultures). Seeing a rise in anti-Islamic rhetoric has had a real impact on those with whom I work. I see a decline in safety of kids of Muslim immigrants at school, and have seen the letters sent to the Islamic centers in the Triad.

My reaction was probably much more to lectro's assertion that violence is inherent to the belief of Islam, and wanted to know on what basis he made that assertion. That's a very broad assertion and not really played out in the practice of the majority of Muslims, especially those that are in the United States.
 
RJKarl said:
Let's think about this...whom should we consider rational and intelligent about Islam? On one hand we have Thunderbolt, a pastor and a person who has done many outreaches to people with one major purpose- to help them or sailor's overt bigotry and lectro...

Hmmmm...this is tough...almost as tough as deciding whether to chug a glass of hemlock or a glass of milk...
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chug the glass of hemlock!
 
RJKarl said:
Let's think about this...whom should we consider rational and intelligent about Islam? On one hand we have Thunderbolt, a pastor and a person who has done many outreaches to people with one major purpose- to help them or sailor's overt bigotry and lectro...

Hmmmm...this is tough...almost as tough as deciding whether to chug a glass of hemlock or a glass of milk...
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TBF, all religious belief is rooted in the irrational, i.e., belief in something regardless of evidence. So, evidenceless belief about evidenceless beliefs is just meta-irrational. What I am saying is that applying a standard of rationality to this argument is suspect.
 
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