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Official 2018-19 NBA Season Thread - NBA Finals Raptors Win #WeTheNorth

JManslow said:
*Your

Malone is second in points scored in history and a two time mvp while nearly winning two titles if it hadn’t been for a guy named Jordan.

Barkley is an MVP and eleven time all NBA player.

It’s really not close.
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Is this a Tunnels joke I don't get?

Basketball Reference's HOF Probability metric has Paul at 28th overall, one spot ahead of Barkley, which feels about right.
 
I get that it is complicated, but still not a good look at all. We are talking a top 5 Deac of all time, one with the 2nd best NBA career of all time who donated $1M+ to upgrade our facilities in the last 12 months.

To add context:

* I have always thought the NC State nut punch story has never been narrated correctly. CP3 had some high school friends who went to State who gave or lost CP3's cell number to a bunch of State kids, who began sending him crude texts prior to that game, including stuff about his granddad. They also called him at odd hours of the morning on game day. Sadly, few remember he hit the game winning shot on a run the length of the court layup. I knew CP3 was gone after that game. Not because of the nut punch or because he had nothing left to prove, but because of his celebrity crossed with too much accessibility to fans. Pros get more privacy and essentially live behind walls. College kids don't.

* His early career in the NBA was great. Unfortunately, his best teammate was David West. His Clippers career was pretty good as well though, I believe CP3 has not stayed in elite athlete shape over the back 9 the way Tim did and others. Thus, the hammy injuries.

* He's made huge shots in the playoffs, but that 80 foot wtf shot/turnover in OKC is about as biggest WTF turnover from a hall of famer in the playoffs since Isiah Thomas threw Larry Bird the ball on an out of bounds play to give a game to the Celtics.

* Kenrick Perkins criticism is probably fair though.
 
saltydeac said:
Yes please shoot me these top 40 lists. CP3 is a great player but not seeing anywhere near top 40. Not sure he even makes a top 40 guards list. Plus He hasn’t even been in a championship series much less win a championship so he will get seriously discounted when comparing to other players where they are close like a Stockton, Pippen, Steph, Isaiah Thomas and could go on and on.
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Slam magazine (2018 list): CP3 #35
https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slams-top-100-players-time-50-11/

CBS Sports (2017 list); CP3 #21
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...ayers-of-all-time-where-do-lebron-curry-rank/

ESPN: CP3 #6 PG of all time
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

I could link dozens of others, but don't feel like taking the time to do so. Those links were simply from the first page of my google search of all time NBA player rankings.

Anyone who says Paul is not a top 40 guard is simply a dumbass and should be ignored regarding all things basketball related.
 
Paul also ranks in the top 10ish all time in numerous advanced player value metrics: PER (8th), real plus/minus (5th), VORP (11th), WS/48 (9th).
 
jmanslow shouldn't make posts about basketball anymore
 
7th all-time in assists
10th all-time in steals

Career comparisons on Basketball-reference.com are:

Jerry West
Magic
Oscar
Kobe
John Stockton
GP
Clyde Drexler
Walt Frazier

Can we end this lame "argument?"

The discussion I think critics should have - is CP3 a good teammate? We know Michael Jordan was not a great teammate. We also know he is a horrific GM.

So I am totally disinterested in the career discussion. He has clearly had a brilliant pro career - one that will land him in the HOF the year he is eligible. The question I have is post career, do his flaws make whatever basketball admin/coach job he has resemble Magic and Michael? Or Danny Ainge, Larry Bird and/or Doc Rivers? Could he be an awesome Wake bball coach? Or not?

And how can he best finish his career over the next 3 or 4 years? And ideally get a championship?
 
A significant amount of CP3’s clout is because he was called the best leader in the NBA ad nauseum for about 10 years until they finally realized recently he creates dysfunctional locker rooms
 
jaybone said:
I get that it is complicated, but still not a good look at all. We are talking a top 5 Deac of all time, one with the 2nd best NBA career of all time who donated $1M+ to upgrade our facilities in the last 12 months.

To add context:

* I have always thought the NC State nut punch story has never been narrated correctly. CP3 had some high school friends who went to State who gave or lost CP3's cell number to a bunch of State kids, who began sending him crude texts prior to that game, including stuff about his granddad. They also called him at odd hours of the morning on game day. Sadly, few remember he hit the game winning shot on a run the length of the court layup. I knew CP3 was gone after that game. Not because of the nut punch or because he had nothing left to prove, but because of his celebrity crossed with too much accessibility to fans. Pros get more privacy and essentially live behind walls. College kids don't.

* His early career in the NBA was great. Unfortunately, his best teammate was David West. His Clippers career was pretty good as well though, I believe CP3 has not stayed in elite athlete shape over the back 9 the way Tim did and others. Thus, the hammy injuries.

* He's made huge shots in the playoffs, but that 80 foot wtf shot/turnover in OKC is about as biggest WTF turnover from a hall of famer in the playoffs since Isiah Thomas threw Larry Bird the ball on an out of bounds play to give a game to the Celtics.

* Kenrick Perkins criticism is probably fair though.
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I think I land somewhere around here. CP3 is a GREAT player but Kendricks criticism can be fair and true at same time
 
Last edited:
"We know Michael Jordan was not a great teammate"

I think six rings makes you a great teammate.

tintinisahottie said:
A significant amount of CP3’s clout is because he was called the best leader in the NBA ad nauseum for about 10 years until they finally realized recently he creates dysfunctional locker rooms
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Kills me to agree with a State fan but yeah, this is it. His on-court persona clashes with his State Farm commercials, charity work, and overall babyface good guy off-court persona.
 
PhDeac said:
"We know Michael Jordan was not a great teammate"

I think six rings makes you a great teammate.



Kills me to agree with a State fan but yeah, this is it. His on-court persona clashes with his State Farm commercials, charity work, and overall babyface good guy off-court persona.
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Explain the logic. Does winning the election make one a great President/Leader?

You can be a shitty teammate and win championships. Kobe and Shaq did NOT get a long for several seasons. They may both gloss over it today, but it was true.

Jordan became a better teammate over the years, but he wasn't every very good.

There was an interesting article in The Athletic this morning that basically said all young non-max players are completely unsympathetic to CP3 and some of the animosity has nothing to do with whether CP3 is a bad, good, or very good teammate - the feeling among the players is that as the players rep, CP3 was way too focused on the rights of the elite super-max players at the expense of the role players and rookie contracts. Therefore, he is now reaping what he sowed - an albatross of a contract which will force him to play in OKC with very little help. It is an interesting take and it makes sense.

I personally would be more pissed off at my organization for paying JR Smith $18 mil per year than I would be at paying CP3 $38mil, but the disparity within a locker room these days is pretty striking.
 
Interesting that Marcus Morris fired Rich Paul as his agent. Apparently he had a $41 million deal with the Clippers, then ended up taking $15 million. Wonder if Rich Paul's allegiance to Lebron would make him want to steer people away from the Clips.
 
jaybone said:
Explain the logic. Does winning the election make one a great President/Leader?

You can be a shitty teammate and win championships. Kobe and Shaq did NOT get a long for several seasons. They may both gloss over it today, but it was true.

Jordan became a better teammate over the years, but he wasn't every very good.

There was an interesting article in The Athletic this morning that basically said all young non-max players are completely unsympathetic to CP3 and some of the animosity has nothing to do with whether CP3 is a bad, good, or very good teammate - the feeling among the players is that as the players rep, CP3 was way too focused on the rights of the elite super-max players at the expense of the role players and rookie contracts. Therefore, he is now reaping what he sowed - an albatross of a contract which will force him to play in OKC with very little help. It is an interesting take and it makes sense.

I personally would be more pissed off at my organization for paying JR Smith $18 mil per year than I would be at paying CP3 $38mil, but the disparity within a locker room these days is pretty striking.
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I remember an interview Robert Horry did when he was asked what it was like playing with Kobe and he said,"I don't know. I've never met the man."

Not many people knew or liked Kobe.
 
Milhouse said:
jmanslow shouldn't make posts about basketball anymore
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Sorry you get triggered by correct people. It’s ludicrous to compare Paul to Malone or Barkley. Both of them put up better stats and went deeper in the playoffs and are more accomplished than Paul. It’s not a discussion.
 
palmab03 said:
Interesting that Marcus Morris fired Rich Paul as his agent. Apparently he had a $41 million deal with the Clippers, then ended up taking $15 million. Wonder if Rich Paul's allegiance to Lebron would make him want to steer people away from the Clips.
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Wait, WHAT?

Skip Bayless must be all over this bit of information.

Makes sense, as now Marc Morris needs to really perform this year to capitalize on the weak FA class in summer 2020? And he's going to do that in a CROWDED frontcourt and very unpredictable frontcourt/team/coaching/management for the Knicks.
 
jaybone said:
Explain the logic. Does winning the election make one a great President/Leader?

You can be a shitty teammate and win championships. Kobe and Shaq did NOT get a long for several seasons. They may both gloss over it today, but it was true.

Jordan became a better teammate over the years, but he wasn't every very good.

There was an interesting article in The Athletic this morning that basically said all young non-max players are completely unsympathetic to CP3 and some of the animosity has nothing to do with whether CP3 is a bad, good, or very good teammate - the feeling among the players is that as the players rep, CP3 was way too focused on the rights of the elite super-max players at the expense of the role players and rookie contracts. Therefore, he is now reaping what he sowed - an albatross of a contract which will force him to play in OKC with very little help. It is an interesting take and it makes sense.

I personally would be more pissed off at my organization for paying JR Smith $18 mil per year than I would be at paying CP3 $38mil, but the disparity within a locker room these days is pretty striking.
Click to expand...

That's a weird analogy. Do you think there are people who regretted playing with Jordan? I've heard people say he was a tough teammate, but I don't know about "bad teammate." I'd definitely be fine working with someone who is tough to work with but is very good at his job and helps us accomplish our goals.
 
Complacent Deac said:
Wait, WHAT?

Skip Bayless must be all over this bit of information.

Makes sense, as now Marc Morris needs to really perform this year to capitalize on the weak FA class in summer 2020? And he's going to do that in a CROWDED frontcourt and very unpredictable frontcourt/team/coaching/management for the Knicks.
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But everybody knows what he can do already and he’s not that old.
 
JManslow said:
Sorry you get triggered by correct people. It’s ludicrous to compare Paul to Malone or Barkley. Both of them put up better stats and went deeper in the playoffs and are more accomplished than Paul. It’s not a discussion.
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Doubling down. Interesting. Trump-esque.

"Correct people" is an awkward way to describe oneself. You have a point to make, just making it very rudely/badly. First, it is not "ludicrous" to compare top 50 NBA players all time. And that is what CP3 is. There really is no argument. You can try, however, counterpoints will include essentially all the sports websites that currently exist: ESPN, the Athletic, Fox, Bleacher Report, etc... That is a steep hill to climb. You are either a total quack or some sports version of Charles Darwin. It does sound like you are trying to argue that the world is flat and more a quack than Darin.

A better way to argue this rather than belittling standard logical thinking is the following:

Tim Duncan is a top 10 NBA player all time.
CP3 is a top 50 player all time and potentially creeping up the list.
Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are top 25 players all time - quasi "better" than CP3 but not by much statistically or otherwise.

Career playoff stats:
Malone - 193 games, 46% shooting 24.5/10.5/3 (3 NBA finals, all losses mostly thanks to Jordan)
Barkley - 123 games, 51% shooting 23/13/4 (1 NBA finals, lost in 4 games)
CP3 - 102 games (so far), 48% shooting 21/5/8.5 (no NBA finals to date)

CP3 has an opportunity to craft a really intriguing final 4 seasons, better than GPs. First, he has to get in better shape IMO. Second, he has to recommit himself to being a leader and mentor to teammates - not just AAU type kids.
 
PhDeac said:
That's a weird analogy. Do you think there are people who regretted playing with Jordan? I've heard people say he was a tough teammate, but I don't know about "bad teammate." I'd definitely be fine working with someone who is tough to work with but is very good at his job and helps us accomplish our goals.
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Yes, I do think there are people who regretted or hated playing with Jordan. Me personally, I would have loved to have Steve Kerr's game and play alongside Jordan. But I would have been annoyed with him if I'm shooting 45% from 3 and he either looks me off and clanks a 3 or passes to me and I miss it and states publicly that the only reason I have a job is to hit that shot - the inference being that if I can't hit, I should be cut/traded. Everyone misses shots. Michael Jordan isn't the only Bull allowed to miss big shots. He sucked as a teammate and he sucks as a GM. I mean the Sacramento Kings with Vlade Divac in charge with their owner is currently in better hands than Charlotte.

I will admit it is an interesting question. Jordan is so much better than the 2nd best player playing in the league 25 years ago, that yes, you allow him to be a dick to teammates, but Jordan is now challenged by Lebron as the GOAT and Lebron is leaps and bounds a better teammate so it is possible to be the GOAT and not a dick to teammates. Not saying Lebron is the BEST teammate of all time, he's just not Jordan-level dickish.
 
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