Lengthy [Redacted] Interview with Gold Rush

[ConnorEl]

...I have a hard time believing he'd be saying things like "5-star heart over 5-star talent." I think he'd go after the best players he could get...

I know some of our fans have indicated a desire to get away from 1-2 and done players. But I don't recall Wellman or Bz ever saying anything like they don't want the best players they can get. Sure, the "culture" thing suggests there is a certain character requisite we're seeking (fine)...but I don't think Wellman or Bz have suggested we're out to avoid otherwise desirable players with the highest talent. Of course, since we're not landing actual five-star players, maybe there's something to the perception?

At this point, I think we're going to have to have some actual success on the court before we become a magnet for the most elite talent. Or make a spectacular hire as hc if/when Bz is out. One way or the other, I think that's the goal, yes?

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Uh, becoming a national laughing stock as we posted one embarrassing post-season loss after another before before eeking out a single victory over a horrible Texas team (before getting blown out again) was kind of a problem... if you're into banners and building a program and recruiting and that sort of thing...

1. We had too much talent to underachieve in the post season
Dino recruited that talent. We couldn't have "underachieved" without having so much potential. Dino was responsible for a lot of that potential.

2. Banners, building, and recruiting.
It's better to blow up in the post season than to never get there. We currently have no hope of any banners or post seasons for at least 2-3 seasons. How does that affect recruiting?

3. Being a laughing stock.
What is more embarrassing for the program, to lose to Cleveland State in March, or to lose to Stetson in November?

 

[Wakeforest22890]

Uh, becoming a national laughing stock as we posted one embarrassing post-season loss after another before before eeking out a single victory over a horrible Texas team (before getting blown out again) was kind of a problem... if you're into banners and building a program and recruiting and that sort of thing...

Right and he got fired....how is that against what I said?

Also 2008 is a success because in a season with a lot of adversity we got to 16-8 with a win over Duke and were in position to make the tournament. At the time it was viewed as us getting tired after having such an emotional "win it for skip" game over Duke.

Hindsight is pretty good.

 

[cville deac]

Maybe I'm alone here but I don't automatically give credence to all of the culture comments to begin with.

Dino graduated every player who stayed 4 years. When he fired Dino, Wellman said it was about postseason success - not culture.

The word culture never came out until the whole abortion of a hire had played out. The whole thing seems like it came out to justify canning a guy with a 61-31 record for a guy with no track record of success. If you can't point to objective criteria why you made a good hire, all that's left is to talk about perceived intangibles. Segue to the disaster of the season that we just finished, and the banner gets carried on. After all, there's no objective way to paint the state of the program in a positive light, so again we just fall back to the perceived intangibles.

Put it another way... Assume for a second that Wellman intended to go after Brad Stevens when he fired Dino. Stevens was certainly the next hot commodity. He represented a young, dynamic coach with the potential to build a national program and stay for his career. But how would Stevens have been a culture change? He recruits mostly 2 and 3 star players at Butler, but who knows what players he would recruit at Wake? I have a hard time believing he'd be saying things like "5-star heart over 5-star talent." I think he'd go after the best players he could get.

The whole culture thing never became an issue until Ron fucked the whole thing up in the first place. Given the credibility gap that's developed since Bz has been hired, is this really that far fetched?

And FWIW, since the season's ended I've found myself migrating back to more of a BzWait perspective. First and foremost, not having to watch the team play on a regular basis has done wonders for my point of view. I do realize that Bz isn't going anywhere (I realized it during the season, too). With the positive press that our recruits are getting, at this point i do want to see what Bz can do with his guys. The question is, will the product on the court pull me back next fall.

well stated

 

[TBDeac]

1. We had too much talent to underachieve in the post season
Dino recruited that talent. We couldn't have "underachieved" without having so much potential. Dino was responsible for a lot of that potential.

2. Banners, building, and recruiting.
It's better to blow up in the post season than to never get there. We currently have no hope of any banners or post seasons for at least 2-3 seasons. How does that affect recruiting?

3. Being a laughing stock.
What is more embarrassing for the program, to lose to Cleveland State in March, or to lose to Stetson in November?

Not that it makes the argument much different but it could very well have been Cleveland St. I'm pretty sure no one gave a shit about us losing to Stetson nationally. This season as a whole was an abomination and more of an embarrassment, but the Stetson loss itself gets played up way too much.

 

[cville deac]

I know some of our fans have indicated a desire to get away from 1-2 and done players. But I don't recall Wellman or Bz ever saying anything like they don't want the best players they can get. Sure, the "culture" thing suggests there is a certain character requisite we're seeking (fine)...but I don't think Wellman or Bz have suggested we're out to avoid otherwise desirable players with the highest talent. Of course, since we're not landing actual five-star players, maybe there's something to the perception?

At this point, I think we're going to have to have some actual success on the court before we become a magnet for the most elite talent. Or make a spectacular hire as hc if/when Bz is out. One way or the other, I think that's the goal, yes?

Connor, when Bz talks about culture, I believe he's solely talking about behavioral issues. But I think with Ron it's both behavior and staying away from the 1 and done type guys. Pretty sure Ron has alluded to both if my memory serves me correctly. So I think that's where the high caliber recruit thing has entered the discussion.

 

[DCDeac]

Not that it makes the argument much different but it could very well have been Cleveland St. I'm pretty sure no one gave a shit about us losing to Stetson nationally. This season as a whole was an abomination and more of an embarrassment, but the Stetson loss itself gets played up way too much.

Yes, of course it is Cleveland State. Nobody cares at all that we lost to Stetson except posters on this board. Nobody cares at all that we won some regular season games and were ranked #1 for a week. College basketball is built on winning conference tournaments and making NCAA runs.

Recruiting is 100% worthless if you completely fail in the postseason. I can't believe how many people argue otherwise. We lost every ACC tournament game to a worse see by double digits in Dino's tenure... But he recruited well! That's like saying I bought an awesome dry-aged prime NY strip, then took a shit on it before burning it to a crisp and serving it to you. Then when you won't eat it, I say, "WHAT?! You don't like steak?!"

 

[ConnorEl]

...That's like saying I bought an awesome dry-aged prime NY strip, then took a shit on it before burning it to a crisp and serving it to you. Then when you won't eat it, I say, "WHAT?! You don't like steak?!"

I think I'm going to skip lunch now...

 

[ConnorEl]

Connor, when Bz talks about culture, I believe he's solely talking about behavioral issues. But I think with Ron it's both behavior and staying away from the 1 and done type guys. Pretty sure Ron has alluded to both if my memory serves me correctly. So I think that's where the high caliber recruit thing has entered the discussion.

Maybe, but I don't recall him really saying that we don't want top-level talent.

To me it just seems an unnecessary and false dichotomy to suggest that you either have top talent or smart/disciplined culture. My guess it that Wellman/Bz would agree. Sure, it's tough to get there and will require some actual winning to accomplish such a thing.

:noidea:

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Yes, of course it is Cleveland State. Nobody cares at all that we lost to Stetson except posters on this board. Nobody cares at all that we won some regular season games and were ranked #1 for a week. College basketball is built on winning conference tournaments and making NCAA runs.

Recruiting is 100% worthless if you completely fail in the postseason. I can't believe how many people argue otherwise. We lost every ACC tournament game to a worse see by double digits in Dino's tenure... But he recruited well! That's like saying I bought an awesome dry-aged prime NY strip, then took a shit on it before burning it to a crisp and serving it to you. Then when you won't eat it, I say, "WHAT?! You don't like steak?!"

No is arguing that Dino did a good job at coaching. Getting drilled in the ACC tourney every year was fucking rough, but we had the capability to do better. Neil Young said it's better to burn out than fade away. With Dino we burned out in the post season, with Bzz we are fading into obscurity.

 

[buckets]

Getting drilled by Cleveland State was better than whatever the fuck happened this past season.

 

[DCDeac]

No is arguing that Dino did a good job at coaching. Getting drilled in the ACC tourney every year was fucking rough, but we had the capability to do better. Neil Young said it's better to burn out than fade away. With Dino we burned out in the post season, with Bzz we are fading into obscurity.

You seem to be insinuating that Dino would have done significantly better this past season (I don't believe he would have) and that [Redacted] will fail. Neither of those are a given.

Neil Young also said it's a really good idea to establish a solid base of 4 year talent at a University where recruiting will always be a challenge so that when you do get an elite player or two they have a system and a supporting cast capable of making serious NCAA tournament runs. He just didn't put that into a song.

 

[MBDeac08]

I heard of one major instance of questionable player actions concerning Dino's squad that lost to Cleveland State. This incident took place in Miami during the tourney. Not good stuff and it is why I can see what Bz is alluding to.

If its what I think it is (situation involving a band member), no one who was on the trip (including myself) seems to remember anything happening. Nor did anyone talk about something happening. Certainly could have been covered up, but others on this board who were in band and on the trip don't seem to know anything about it.

ETA: IF what was rumored to happen did happen, then it was a bigger problem then just Dino covering it up. Seems the entire staff and possibly the AD would be responsible as well.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

You seem to be insinuating that Dino would have done significantly better this past season (I don't believe he would have) and that [Redacted] will fail. Neither of those are a given.

Neil Young also said it's a really good idea to establish a solid base of 4 year talent at a University where recruiting will always be a challenge so that when you do get an elite player or two they have a system and a supporting cast capable of making serious NCAA tournament runs. He just didn't put that into a song.

For the Neil Young reference, I was listening to cover songs and had music on the brain. It's not a given that Bzz will fail, but he hasn't taken any steps to create excitement around the program, even after completing the worst ACC season in modern history. His recruiting is underwhelming (good or not) and he is terrible with the media. He could have used our recently drafted players as a recruiting advantage and building block, but he is instead insulting them as a part of the old "culture" which needs changing.I'm not sure of what "recruiting challenges" that Wake has in basketball, if Skip and Dino could recruit 4 and 5 star players, so can [Redacted]. Having said that, it's still way too early to label our current commits as "solid 4 year talent".

 

[JimDuncan]

2 things:

No, it did not involve the band. It was an incident in the evening when the players were on there own in Miami during that forgettable NCAA loss at Cleveland State.

I have actually been pleasantly surprised with Bzz and staff recruiting ability up to this point considering the season we had - of course, the only thing that matters is on the court, but I think things are going relatively well on the recruiting front.

 

[cville deac]

Maybe, but I don't recall him really saying that we don't want top-level talent.

To me it just seems an unnecessary and false dichotomy to suggest that you either have top talent or smart/disciplined culture. My guess it that Wellman/Bz would agree. Sure, it's tough to get there and will require some actual winning to accomplish such a thing.

:noidea:

Connor, I forget exactly what Ron said. And it wasn't that we don't want top level talent. Something more like shying away from academically riskier type of high recruits. But yes, it's an unnecessary and false dichotomy. And it's an unnecessary and thinly veiled slam on Dino - and maybe Skip and an unnamed athlete or 2 as well (JJ?).

This is what makes me irate whenever I hear this crap from Wellman and Bz. Just leave well enough alone and take the high road. Dino sure has taken the high road. But they both keep repeating this culture mantra in a weak attempt to excuse what is the sorry state of our hoops program. Ron said when he fired Dino that it was because of lack of post-season success. Then he just made up something else when he hired a guy with little regular season success and zero post-season success. It's more than enough for Ron to say this crap. But it makes me dislike Bz even more when he repeats it. Between that and having Ron help with his pressers, it really makes Bz look weak and small.

 

[DCDeac]

For the Neil Young reference, I was listening to cover songs and had music on the brain. It's not a given that Bzz will fail, but he hasn't taken any steps to create excitement around the program, even after completing the worst ACC season in modern history. His recruiting is underwhelming (good or not) and he is terrible with the media. He could have used our recently drafted players as a recruiting advantage and building block, but he is instead insulting them as a part of the old "culture" which needs changing.I'm not sure of what "recruiting challenges" that Wake has in basketball, if Skip and Dino could recruit 4 and 5 star players, so can [Redacted]. Having said that, it's still way too early to label our current commits as "solid 4 year talent".

Well, I'd argue his recruiting has actually been looking pretty solid lately. Outside of that, I don't care if he's terrible with the media. I don't care if his speeches about discipline and culture somehow offends Wake alumni(I don't think it does). I don't care if Wellman speaks at pressers. I don't care what recruiting services who labeled Ty Walker a 5 star can't-miss center think of our recruits.

All I know is that when I was growing up in Atlanta before I was a Wake fan, some quiet old boring coach was winning ACC championships and putting Wake on the national scene year after year. Then we tried to take another step forward with a popular, fan-friendly, top tier coach who brought us to the brink of greatness before tragically dying.

[Redacted] sure reminds me of Odom who went 3-11 his first year. He gets 3 years to prove it. Looking at a single year when we knew we'd suck anyway even before losing our only point guard and starting center, and rushing to these set-in-stone judgments is ridiculous though.

 

[deaclite]

Dave Odom was born and bred in the ACC and earned his spot at Wake and at UVa as an assistant before becoming our HC. Coach Bz seems like a fish out of water around here.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Well, I'd argue his recruiting has actually been looking pretty solid lately. Outside of that, I don't care if he's terrible with the media. I don't care if his speeches about discipline and culture somehow offends Wake alumni(I don't think it does). I don't care if Wellman speaks at pressers. I don't care what recruiting services who labeled Ty Walker a 5 star can't-miss center think of our recruits.

All I know is that when I was growing up in Atlanta before I was a Wake fan, some quiet old boring coach was winning ACC championships and putting Wake on the national scene year after year. Then we tried to take another step forward with a popular, fan-friendly, top tier coach who brought us to the brink of greatness before tragically dying.

[Redacted] sure reminds me of Odom who went 3-11 his first year. He gets 3 years to prove it. Looking at a single year when we knew we'd suck anyway even before losing our only point guard and starting center, and rushing to these set-in-stone judgments is ridiculous though.

I think [Redacted] deserves another year, but not due to any personal merit, just because he hasn't had enough time to prove himself. This is as easy a time as he is going to get, because the ACC sucks outside of UNC & Duke. If we can't win 6 or 7 more games next year than he needs to go.

 

[MBDeac08]

2 things:

No, it did not involve the band. It was an incident in the evening when the players were on there own in Miami during that forgettable NCAA loss at Cleveland State.
.

Gotcha. Then I have no clue what you are talking about. Carry on.