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2023-24 Wake Forest Basketball Season - 21-14 (11-9) - KP#29 / NET#43

we know everything the NCAA does is 100% logical, so the argument ends there!
 
The first four started in 2011. In the 12 tournaments played with a first 4, never have both advancing 11 or 12 seeds lost in the round of 64, which is pretty amazing since those teams are considerable seeded underdogs. In the 2023 tournament, first four Pitt (#11 seed) crushed #6 seed Iowa State 59-41 in the round of 64. Over the last 12 tournaments, a first four winner has advanced to two final 4s (2011 VCU and 2021 UCLA) and five sweet 16s.
 
thatguy2016 said:
we know everything the NCAA does is 100% logical, so the argument ends there!
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I'm not making a call on whether or not what they have done is logical, I am merely stating that it is objectively, 100% considered to be a tournament appearance if you make it to the First Four. That's irrefutable.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
I'm not making a call on whether or not what they have done is logical, I am merely stating that it is objectively, 100% considered to be a tournament appearance if you make it to the First Four. That's irrefutable.
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fair!

What I'm saying is - when I filled out a bracket on March 15, 2017 and Wake Forest was not among my choices, was Wake Forest in the bracket?

(and for purposes of this question, "bracket" and "Officially Sanctioned NCAA Tournament" may not mean exactly the same thing!)
 
deacfan123 said:
We all know that if you don't play Thurs/Fri it absolutely does not feel like you made the tourney. All you need to know. Put it on a banner, celebrate it whatever, but that aint it.
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Exactly. The program isn't where it needs to be if we're arguing about this. And that's what matters.
 
Pilchard said:
None of the four Dayton games are called 'play-in' games. It's called the 'first four'. You may choose to call it whatever you want. A lot of emphasis here to call it 'play-in' or 'not counting as a bid' is because WF's coach in 2017, when WF played in the first four, is a reviled figure in WF sports. So, there is no chance that anything that happened during DM's tenure will be recognized as an achievement, that includes straining to dismiss the 2017 team as an NCAAT team.
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My take on it has nothing to do with Wake in 2017. That team did achieve something, the chance to play their way into the tournament. Which is the best result for a Wake season since 2010.

But regardless of what the NCAA wants to call them, the First Four are play-in games and thus not part of the tournament proper. If they weren't games in which the teams were trying to play their way into the tournament then they would be assigned seeds like the other 60 teams are. Instead they are playing to determine who will be in the tournament as the #16 or #11 (or #12) seed in a respective region.
 
A bipartisan group of lawmakers from the Dayton area agrees that they are play-in games

www.brown.senate.gov

Brown, Vance, Turner, Davidson Call on NCAA Men’s Basketball Committee to Continue Hosting March Madness Games in Dayton, Expand to First and Second Round in 2027 | U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio

WASHINGTON, D.C. – With March Madness quickly approaching, Ohio’s U.S. Senators Sherrod Brown (D-OH)...
www.brown.senate.gov www.brown.senate.gov

“For more than twenty years, March Madness has had its tip-off in Dayton, Ohio. During this time, Dayton has hosted the ‘First Four’ or play-in games of the NCAA Division I men’s basketball tournament. As members of Ohio’s Congressional delegation, we offer our strong support of the University of Dayton’s application to continue that tradition,”
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DCDeac said:
I like the idea that coaching strategies, techniques, or motivational approaches can deliver an undefeated home record and excellent metrics while also somehow corrupting and preventing a team from winning road games.

It's particularly tricky in our case when such coaching failures are only occurring in the 2nd half of road games. And in fairness the minutes, personnel, positions, schemes - they've been pretty consistent in the 2nd half of road and home games, so the issue has to be a lack of creatively altering our approach in the 2nd half of road games now that we know we won't perform well given the same approach that has been 100% successful at home.

I like the idea because it would mean that all we have to do is make some minor change at the coaching level, and it's completely unrelated to our players or their performance. That sounds great. Sign me up for that fantasy world.

Or maybe sometimes you put together a solid tournament-level team, have a great plan and preparation, put everyone in a position to succeed - and the team simply doesn't perform. And there is no magic answer, no zone to switch to, no trick play on offense and no perfect speech to illicit extreme motivation.
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Counterpoint: this just feels like crazy talk
 
deacon14 said:
You understand how ridiculous it is to ignore what the NCAA says about the tournament they run and to instead depend on your own feelings about it right?

You can make the statement that you will not be satisfied with Dayton compared to getting into the field of 64, but you don't have to try to make the argument that it literally doesn't count as making the tournament.
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Why are they called “play-in” games if you are already in and why is the following round called the “first round”? Feels like cope to be defending it in this manner. If you don’t win you aren’t “in”.
 
The entire tournament is already single elimination - the play in games are distinctly not the first round of the tournament.
 
I never understood why 68 teams. Keep the automatic bids and lower the at large numbers… honestly are the last four teams in really tournament worthy? 64 teams and a fantastic weekend of basketball
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Why are they called “play-in” games if you are already in and why is the following round called the “first round”? Feels like cope to be defending it in this manner. If you don’t win you aren’t “in”.
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This has already been covered but they are not called play in games anywhere even if functionally that’s what they are
 
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