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A wet dream for conservatives

Well they want to establish an idle class who can't afford to pay for school so they don't go who become a permanent underclass. Imagine millions of parents who work hard in stagnant wages jobs who can't afford to pay for school and can't afford child care. Oh but DODO thinks they'll "get the education they can afford". What is that? They'll get an even worse education than they get now.
 
I think that disabled and ESL students can also be more effeciently educated by private schools. Just the competition alone would be helpful; if your child is not recieving a good education, the ability to immediately change schools would be a big advantage. A first step would be true school choice in the government schools: let parents decide which government school they want their child to attend instead of having apparatchiks assign children as they often do now. That would at least be helpful in getting rid of the worst government schools since few parents would willingly send their kids to a failing school.
 
The crappy parents who live in crappy neighborhoods would still send their kids to the bad schools in the bad neighborhoods, because they just don't care.
 
A small percentage of parents don't care, but most care a very great deal about their children's education. In some of the cases where the parents don't care, the children themselves would prefer a different school and might do better there.
 
If most parents care, then it won't be a crappy school.
 
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ChrisL68 said:
If most parent's care, then it won't be a crappy school.
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I have tutored for years in public schools. The problem is not from eight o'clock to three o'clock. It is from three o'clock to eight o'clock. Getting worse every year. Thanks, LBJ.
 
DreamOnDemOn said:
I think that disabled and ESL students can also be more effeciently educated by private schools. Just the competition alone would be helpful; if your child is not recieving a good education, the ability to immediately change schools would be a big advantage. A first step would be true school choice in the government schools: let parents decide which government school they want their child to attend instead of having apparatchiks assign children as they often do now. That would at least be helpful in getting rid of the worst government schools since few parents would willingly send their kids to a failing school.
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What motivation is there for private schools to even take those kids on? Taking care of and teaching special needs kids is expensive. I'm not sure how competition would help. "If you don't teach my special needs kid better, I'm switching schools." "Awesome, that would really help our cost structure."

So, again, we are left with no education options for those with special needs (unless their family is wealthy enough to overpay) or low income children (unless they are part of the tiny percentage that win the lottery and get to go to the charter school in their community). I don't see how a large number of children with no education, no options to improve their future, and nothing to do all day is good for anyone.
 
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we need to go to a purely socialist model of addressing education. i am not kidding at all.

free to all students through undergrad (or technical) education
eliminate stupid EOGs
don't start tracking until mid HS age
etc
etc
 
A free market takes care of all the needs of all the people far better than government force. This is true in education as well as in other things. If there is a profit to be made from the care of special needs kids (and I think there is) then plenty of options would be available under a free market. Just because something is expensive does not mean that the only possible course of action is to turn it completely over to greedy politicians. If there is not a profit to be made, then plenty of charity options would be available to parents of special needs children.

Even in the government school system introducing freedom of choice would be helpful. Some school treat special needs children better than others and the parents of these children should be allowed to choose the school that provides the best situation for their particular child. Schools that fail to provide services that families want should be closed and the resources put where they will do more good. Instead, right now we have political decisions guiding the school systems.

Avalon, a free people find solutions to problems. There will never be "no options" for anything in a free world. If that situation ever comes up for you, I'll bet you will invent options. You won't sit there with a problem and demand that someone come and solve it for you until you die.
 
don't we want all schools to treat special needs kids the same?
 
You know he has no answer when the libertarian platitudes come out.
 
DreamOnDemOn said:
Avalon, a free people find solutions to problems. There will never be "no options" for anything in a free world. If that situation ever comes up for you, I'll bet you will invent options. You won't sit there with a problem and demand that someone come and solve it for you until you die.
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This was kind of my point. People will find a way to survive. But without an education, options are limited. I'd imagine there would be a huge increase in the crime rate. Especially when you're talking about kids that are sitting around with nothing to do all day and likely without parental supervision. You can't just say "if you can't pay for school, tough luck" as if those kids will just go away and have no impact on society.

It seems like you often bring up charity as a catch-all to take care of everyone who falls through the cracks. This seems awfully idealistic. Charities don't have the resources to take care of everyone who needs help now, why would they suddenly have enough to take care of everyone when you add even more to those in need?

I'm very much a proponent of the free market for most industries. And I think charter schools are fantastic. But I have yet to hear an argument that switching to an entirely private school system would be in any way effective. There are just too many issues.
 
DreamOnDemOn said:
A free market takes care of all the needs of all the people far better than government force. This is true in education as well as in other things. If there is a profit to be made from the care of special needs kids (and I think there is) then plenty of options would be available under a free market. Just because something is expensive does not mean that the only possible course of action is to turn it completely over to greedy politicians. If there is not a profit to be made, then plenty of charity options would be available to parents of special needs children.

Even in the government school system introducing freedom of choice would be helpful. Some school treat special needs children better than others and the parents of these children should be allowed to choose the school that provides the best situation for their particular child. Schools that fail to provide services that families want should be closed and the resources put where they will do more good. Instead, right now we have political decisions guiding the school systems.

Avalon, a free people find solutions to problems. There will never be "no options" for anything in a free world. If that situation ever comes up for you, I'll bet you will invent options. You won't sit there with a problem and demand that someone come and solve it for you until you die.
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What is your experience in education?
 
Avalon, I appreciate your addressing the issues instead of dismissing everything out of hand like some of the posters here do.

I think people will also find an answer to the problem of getting an education. There probably are people who have copulated irresponsibly and have children they do not care about. But that is a small percentage of people being enabled to continue their terrible ways by the welfare state. Neither you nor I would abandon our children if there were no government schools. The kids you worry about who would be at risk of sitting idle at home all day without government schools are probably sitting idle in the government schools right now, causing many of the problems that prevent other kids from being educated in those schools. Just removing them from the schools would be an improvement.

I do bring up charity often as a safety net. That is the most efficient safety net, Avalon. If you suddenly dumped all of the services government performs onto private charities they would of course be overwhelmed. But if we move toward that goal we will see resouces moved from government control to private control and a corresponding increase in efficiency.

A great first step for education would be more choice in government schools. You have probably seen how government apparatchiks argue vehemently against charter schools and try to sabotage them. They feel threatened by more control transferred to parents.

No one cares about your children as much as you do. Government people are not some super species that has special insight into education. The more control you have, the better the overall result will be.
 
Most of these government solutions were enacted due to the inability of the private sector to address these issues. I don't see why we need to go back and learn that lesson all over again.

I am all for more choice and think the charter school system is a great idea. Greensboro also makes extensive use of the magnet program that emphasizes specific academic specialties at particular schools.
 
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I'm not sure that charities are the most efficient way to take care of anything. Non profits are, in general, notoriously inefficient. (As is the government, granted, but I don't see how dumping the responsibilities of one inefficient organization onto another, one that has a tiny fraction of the resources, would be a good idea.)

But I think we've reached agree to disagree territory, DreamOn. Appreciate the responses.
 
I believe that non profits that depend on private donations are more efficient than non-profits that use tax booty. People who want to help others voluntarily want to do the most good with what they have to contribute and look for charities that do that. Government people often have other motivations, such as keeping themselves in power and helping their lobbyist friends.
 
DreamOnDemOn said:
I think people will also find an answer to the problem of getting an education.

......

The more control you have, the better the overall result will be.
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What is going to be the quality of that education that parents are able to find/afford. Those with more money and/or smarter kids will have access to the best available, while those with low incomes/disabilities will be left with the cheap scraps that are left.

If parental control is what you want, then everyone should be homeschooled.
 
DreamOnDemOn said:
I believe that non profits that depend on private donations are more efficient than non-profits that use tax booty. People who want to help others voluntarily want to do the most good with what they have to contribute and look for charities that do that. Government people often have other motivations, such as keeping themselves in power and helping their lobbyist friends.
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There is corruption in most organizations. The larger the organization, the more corruption. This is why I propose decentralizing our public education system and giving local districts and schools more power.
 
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