Strickland33
Well-known member
Bob Knight sure had great protégés. I wonder if he taught Dave Bliss everything he knows.
Athlon's Top 30 NCAA BBall Coaches
- Thread starter wfumike02
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
Bob Knight sure had great protégés. I wonder if he taught Dave Bliss everything he knows.
WTF are you talking about? Here are Izzo's classes of 5* (elite talent) on Scout from 2002-2011:
2002 - one - Paul Davis - injured before he arrived-injured in school
2003- one - Shannon Brown was a star
2004- none
2005- none
2006- none
2007- Durrell Summers- solid MSU career
2008- Delvin Roe- injured seriously before arriving-injured while at MSU
2009- none
2010 - Adrian Payne - basically a bust
2011- Brenden Dawson - injured
Exactly how is that "squandering elite talent"?
Strickland33
Well-known member
Of your examples, only one elite prospect (I'd contend that there are some elite 4* players too like Maurice Ager, Raymar Morgan, etc.) has played like one (see my comments on Summers). MSU has a Wake-esque track record with 5* talent. That's squandering.
I'm unsure of what you are referring to, but your examples are pretty good indicators of MSU fans' beefs. Regardless of the injuries that Davis and Roe suffered in school, they both underwhelmed significantly at MSU. Roe, in particular, never found a place in the offense and straight-up never developed.
By the numbers, Summers looks solid, but he was benched at least 5 times throughout his career, suspended, and then completely underwhelmed for probably 75% of his college career. Dude was a surefire first round prospect as a sophomore. That's the danger of deriving analysis purely from stats. I don't think anybody would consider Summers to be anything better than average at MSU, especially compared to what he should have been. MSU fans, in particular, are not a big fan.
There is a maxim in the scouting community that Izzo coaches up scrappy players (Draymond Green comes to mind) with high IQ and coaches down elite prospects (Payne, Roe, Summers, Raymar Morgan).
They had six 5* recruits in a decade:
Three were injured and couldn't possibly be counted.
One was a star
One was a bust.
One was a very solid player.
In that same decade they made two Sweet 16s, an Elite 8 and three Final Fours (one championship).
In what world is three Final Fours and an elite 8 "squandering" elite talent in this era?
In the same period K had:
Two Final Fours (one NC)
Zero Elite 8s
Four Sweet 16s
K had much more talent than Izzo.
Three were injured and couldn't possibly be counted.
One was a star
One was a bust.
One was a very solid player.
In that same decade they made two Sweet 16s, an Elite 8 and three Final Fours (one championship).
In what world is three Final Fours and an elite 8 "squandering" elite talent in this era?
In the same period K had:
Two Final Fours (one NC)
Zero Elite 8s
Four Sweet 16s
K had much more talent than Izzo.
Yea I have to agree with RJ here, Izzo doesn't really squander elite talent, he just doesn't get that many elite, 5* prospects. He's got a hit, a miss, and a good college player. That's got to be above average compared to how most 5* recruits turn out.
Strickland33
Well-known member
We're arguing different points, RJ. I agree with this latest point. Izzo is a heck of a coach (probably would fall somewhere 1-3 on my list) and K undoubtedly has more and has had more talent. This is hardly a point of contention.
I'm saying he squanders elite talent. This is almost undeniable.
Paul Davis had plenty of chances to contribute beyond his injuries and developed into a solid player, mediocre prospect by the time it was all said and done. Delvon Roe had an ACL injury in his junior year of HS and had significant expectations for his freshman season. Other injuries came later. I don't know anyone who would consider Durrell Summers anything better than mediocre. Here's a good example of what many were saying about him. And, that's favorable since it's projecting him as an NBA prospect. Sure, he was unspectacular, but unspectacular 5* prospects are busts and he had very little to do with his team's success over the course of his time there. He showed up a few times, but that's about it. We agree about Shannon Brown.
Look beyond 5-stars to the 4-stars, though:
Draymond Green - great
Drew Neitzel - great
Kalin Lucas - great (but development stalled, once projected lotto pick)
Mo Ager - good (but never got better, once projected lotto pick)
Keith Appling - decent, but could end up pretty good
Derrick Nix - decent, but could end up pretty good
Marquise Gray - decent
Chris Allen - decent, but kicked off the team and transferred to Iowa State
Korie Lucious - decent, but kicked off the team and transferred to Iowa State
Delco Rowley - bust
Matt Trannon - bust (but good at football)
Drew Naymond - bust
Tom Herzog - bust, transferred to UCF
Brandon Cotton (McD AA)- bust, transferred to Detroit.
Maurice Joseph - bust, transferred to Vermont
Isaiah Dahlman - bust
Garrick Sherman - bust
Alex Gauna - bust so far
Russell Byrd - bust so far
It's a pretty damning list. Look at our guys in comparison.
What were the RESULTS for the team?
That's all that counts in team sports. It's very arguable that only Calipari's teams did better than Izzo's over the past decade. Of course Calipari lost one year due to cheating and has clouds on other years.
That's all that counts in team sports. It's very arguable that only Calipari's teams did better than Izzo's over the past decade. Of course Calipari lost one year due to cheating and has clouds on other years.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
Team results were great, but not many professional basketball players in that group, and hardly any NBA players.
Strickland33
Well-known member
RJ, what about this conversation do you not understand?
Izzo is an outstanding coach.
Izzo is a lousy developer of elite talent.
Those are not mutually exclusive statements.
w84it
Well-known member
Can we talk about the real travesty here - Bo Ryan being ranked 9th.
I completely disagree with that statement.
A perfect example is you consider Korie Louis and Chris Allen as potential elite talent. Neither of them were Top 50 on Scout.
Herzon was #49 (and grossly overrated).
Trannon was mostly a football player.
Maurice Ager averaged 14.1 and 19.3 his last two years. Scout had him as the 13th best SG his Sr year. That's outplaying his HS ranking and being very well developed.
Kailin Lucas was significantly better as a senior than he was as a frosh. He was Big 10 POY. How is that no being developed?
This is silly. You couldn't be more wrong.
TUA01576
Well-known member
Whats the argument here, developing NBA talent or team results? I swear some on here just love to argue with RJ.
Strickland33
Well-known member
Agreed, when I mentioned that Izzo is in my top-3, I should have mentioned that the other two were Cal and Bo Ryan.
My list probably looks like this:
1. Calipari
2. Izzo
3. Ryan
4. Donovan
5. K
6. Pitino
7. Stevens
8. Buzz Williams
9. Crean
10. Roy Williams
11. Boeheim
12. Dixon
13. Mack
14. Miller
15. Dunphy
Strickland33
Well-known member
You're right, I undersold Ager and Lucas. We can consider them to be stars. Trannon was recruited to play both sports, but was a 4* prospect in basketball. This is common at MSU. Marquise Gray had a similar trajectory but chose basketball.
I was counting 4* and 5* players as elite talent, as they are almost always RSCI top-100 players. That's pretty elite. That's how most classify elite talent. We can quibble over semantics, but we can agree that top-100 players are just that, in the top ~1% of their craft.
Roughly 20% of his top-100 recruits are first options in college.
Being gracious, roughly 20% are contributors to second options.
That leaves about 60% as legit busts and, if you look at my list, these guys are legit busts.
Strickland33
Well-known member
I'm not sure if RJ is blocking me and didn't read the first post or just wants to argue today, but I brought up the fact that while Izzo is universally considered to be an excellent coach (a point that I agree with, as you can see throughout my posts and my list), he has a reputation with MSU fans, NBA scouts, and the mainstream press as struggling to develop elite talent. You're welcome to find my original post on the last page where I stated this. I have posted a list of 4* prospects to go alongside of RJ's provided list of 5* prospects, a list which shows a bunch of legitimate busts (which comprise roughly 60% of his top-100 recruits).
I don't understand what's so contentious about the latter claim. That's my argument. Has been, will be.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
It's a simple thought, Izzo is a great team coach, but he doesn't propel his top prospects to individual success. How do you measure your boss when your department has record gains, but you can't ever get a promotion and he gives you a shitty refferal.
I'd say his results speak to him developing them past the level of talent they had when they arrived at MSU.
I just don't see how you can say he doesn't develop his players when they routinely outplay their incoming ratings.
I just don't see how you can say he doesn't develop his players when they routinely outplay their incoming ratings.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
His top recruits don't, and that's all we we're trying to say. I think you get it, so I'm not going to comment on it further.
Strickland33
Well-known member
But they don't. That's the point. It's also subjective, so arguing it any further seems like a waste of time. All I know is that if you compare Izzo's top-100 recruits to our top-100 recruits, then you start to see why he's such an awesome coach.
A good measure that he fails to develop elite talent is pretty clear: count the number of top-100 Izzo recruits since 2002 in the NBA or ACB leagues. His guys just have not had a ton of success in the pros and, a lot of them, haven't had much success on campus, either.
But we agree in your first statement: "his results speak to him developing them [all players] past (sic) the level of talent they had when they arrived at MSU."