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AZ Tea Party get legalized discrimination bill to pass

"JH, wouldn't you need to be recommended for promotion by a superior officer? If so that person certainly knows your race and thus the process is not actually race blind."

"You're boss gives you a performance report."
 
PhDeac said:
"JH, wouldn't you need to be recommended for promotion by a superior officer? If so that person certainly knows your race and thus the process is not actually race blind."

"You're boss gives you a performance report."
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Your boss does not promote you. There are very specific procedures in place that govern that process. Does your boss have a hand in reviewing your performance? Everywhere on Earth, including places that oppose affirmative action. Being evaluated by your boss does not equate to affirmative action. You're smarter than this, Ph.
 
PhDeac said:
"JH, wouldn't you need to be recommended for promotion by a superior officer? If so that person certainly knows your race and thus the process is not actually race blind."

"You're boss gives you a performance report."
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Are you insinuating that a part of AA is for bosses to give more favorable performance reports to black employees or subordinates because of their skin color?
 
Wrangor said:
Are you insinuating that a part of AA is for bosses to give more favorable performance reports to black employees or subordinates because of their skin color?
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If anything, I would have been the one insinuating that. And to a degree I was only in so much as I pointed out the possibility of it happening.

You see, in this thread JH has devoted great time to denying the use of AA in the military (in spite of evidence to the contrary including a document signed by top brass of multiple branches of the very military he holds in such high regards) using as his only evidence the fact the USAF has a name redacted, photoless review process thus making the USAF totally race blind (we also have DeacinBama saying the Army, I believe, includes names and pictures so at least one branch isn't race blind). I simply pointed out that if the piece of information heavily weighted in a decision in promotion (performance review) is put together by somebody who knows the race of the individual the process isn't actually fully race blind. The output is but the input is not necessarily. Basically, his only piece of evidence isn't even actually race blind. I didn't make my post to say that is how AA is carried out in the military, just that the process in question isn't actually race blind. Personally I trust the top military brass that say AA has been used quite effectively to enhance the diversity of military leadership.
 
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Wrangor said:
Are you insinuating that a part of AA is for bosses to give more favorable performance reports to black employees or subordinates because of their skin color?
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No. AA would be giving fair performance reviews to black and Hispanic employees and recommending them for promotion at the same rate as white employees with the same rating. Studies have shown that neither happens.

I was just pointing out that even jhmd admits that BigTree was right. It isn't a race-blind process. The direct supervisor plays a crucial role.
 
PhDeac said:
No. AA would be giving fair performance reviews to black and Hispanic employees and recommending them for promotion at the same rate as white employees with the same rating. Studies have shown that neither happens.

I was just pointing out that even jhmd admits that BigTree was right. It isn't a race-blind process. The direct supervisor plays a crucial role.
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But not Asians. They don't get fairly evaluated. Because..., well, because.

Also, according to this theory, anytime you know your boss = affirmative action. So since Robert E. Lee wrote performance reports on his subordinates, he practiced affirmative action. Makes perfect sense to me.
 
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BigTreeDeac said:
Also, how is writing a more glowing performance review for a minority employee worse than what you already think AA is....less qualified minorities getting jobs just because of their skin color?
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Is this what you think AA is? Coddling black people? Wow. It looks like you and JH are on the same page then. You just think it is a good idea.

I don't think AA is giving anyone a more glowing review than what they deserve based on their skin color. I think AA is evaluating a person exactly where they are, and then placing that evaluation in some sort of historical context. Blowing smoke up a race's ass isn't going to do them any good. That is amazing. I can't believe someone would actually admit to that.

I am not opposed to AA in theory. I think our practice of it is a bit flawed. I would like to see a timelined regression of the use of AA as we become more modern, and as the consequences of slavery begin to recede. A clear regressive timeline would also make it clear to all involved that not only do we immediately expect races to be treated equally, but eventually we also expect them all to be judged/evaluated by the same standards. I think this would benefit all races, as both sides of the argument could see the short term value of evening the playing field, and the long term value of fairness to all.

Just my thoughts.
 
BigTreeDeac said:
If anything, I would have been the one insinuating that. And to a degree I was only in so much as I pointed out the possibility of it happening.

You see, in this thread JH has devoted great time to denying the use of AA in the military (in spite of evidence to the contrary including a document signed by top brass of multiple branches of the very military he holds in such high regards) using as his only evidence the fact the USAF has a name redacted, photoless review process thus making the USAF totally race blind (we also have DeacinBama saying the Army, I believe, includes names and pictures so at least one branch isn't race blind). I simply pointed out that if the piece of information heavily weighted in a decision in promotion (performance review) is put together by somebody who knows the race of the individual the process isn't actually fully race blind. The output is but the input is not necessarily. Basically, his only piece of evidence isn't even actually race blind. I didn't make my post to say that is how AA is carried out in the military, just that the process in question isn't actually race blind. Personally I trust the top military brass that say AA has been used quite effectively to enhance the diversity of military leadership.
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How do you willfully ignore the military's long-standing policies of discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation (and for most of its history, race and gender) to find their model as a useful analogy in a thread on the discrimination on the basis of....sexual orientation?
 
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BigTreeDeac said:
Also, how is writing a more glowing performance review for a minority employee worse than what you already think AA is....less qualified minorities getting jobs just because of their skin color?
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Affirmative action is---by any honest interpretation---treating people differently based on their skin color. We've had more than enough of that in this country's history. It is time to stop it. We can do much, much better than that lazy practice.

Most of our country's poor are in fact white. It must come as some shock to the kid who grew up in a single wide, single parent household, graduating near the top of his underperforming high school on the Redneck Riviera (sorry, Wrangor, you know I love you) that his SAT score should be discounted because of his privilege. As if the Scantron could just smell the pigmentation...

Ditto for the first generation American, ETL refugee from Cambodia whose father was killed by an American bomb, who has his performance on the English portion of the SAT discounted because he was born with the wrong skin color. He's got a demonstrably worse chance to get admitted to a University (versus a native born, native English speaker, including the child of the pilot who dropped the bomb that killed his father) because of....why, again? Are we really this lazy?

If you insist, why wouldn't class be a much better way to pick on other people?
 
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So then you agree the continued discrimination of homosexuals to this day in this country is evidence that AA and related policies are not currently in place? Or do you just ignore centuries of oppression when it suits you? AA, which is what you say is not occurring in the military, is not limited to homosexuals. In fact, when you discuss it you exclusively discuss it in the context of race (see your Asian tangent on this thread). I, nor anybody else, ever said the military hasn't discriminated against minorities and women and homosexuals in the past. It is quite the opposite which is why they adopted AA policies to seek to rectify some of the issues. You are the one that tried to hold up the military as proof diversity can happen without big, bad government intervention while ignoring the fact that the military would still be just white males in meaningful positions if not for government intervention.
 
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Wrangor said:
Is this what you think AA is? Coddling black people? Wow. It looks like you and JH are on the same page then. You just think it is a good idea.

I don't think AA is giving anyone a more glowing review than what they deserve based on their skin color. I think AA is evaluating a person exactly where they are, and then placing that evaluation in some sort of historical context. Blowing smoke up a race's ass isn't going to do them any good. That is amazing. I can't believe someone would actually admit to that.

I am not opposed to AA in theory. I think our practice of it is a bit flawed. I would like to see a timelined regression of the use of AA as we become more modern, and as the consequences of slavery begin to recede. A clear regressive timeline would also make it clear to all involved that not only do we immediately expect races to be treated equally, but eventually we also expect them all to be judged/evaluated by the same standards. I think this would benefit all races, as both sides of the argument could see the short term value of evening the playing field, and the long term value of fairness to all.

Just my thoughts.
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Nah man, you and I see pretty much eye to eye. I erroneously ascribed JHesque beliefs to you and I apologize.
 
BigTreeDeac said:
Nah man, you and I see pretty much eye to eye. I erroneously ascribed JHesque beliefs to you and I apologize.
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Cool. Sorry for the misinterpretation. I think we need a plan to eliminate AA. Sometimes by putting a timeline on things it helps all involved. I think AA would be much more effective if everyone was on board for what it is. It was never intended to last forever. This is what worries people like JH. They see the unfairness of it (and it is unfair...that is the point of it...to undo past unfairness by compensating in the present) and they get worried it will continue forever. It was never intended to last forever, but the reality is that there is still a lot of residual effects from slavery that are present in our society. I think if we came up with a 25/50 year plan that took yearly assessments on the progress of what we were doing, that it would bring more people into the fold. I think there are a lot of middle of the road Republicans (like I consider myself...I know get a good laugh) that would agree.

AA has great intentions, and at this point we are better with it than without it. In my lifetime I think we could see that pendulum swing where we have advanced enough as a society to lessen our need for AA. At least that is my hope (and should be the hope of everyone that supports AA).
 
Wrangor said:
Cool. Sorry for the misinterpretation. I think we need a plan to eliminate AA. Sometimes by putting a timeline on things it helps all involved. I think AA would be much more effective if everyone was on board for what it is. It was never intended to last forever. This is what worries people like JH. They see the unfairness of it (and it is unfair...that is the point of it...to undo past unfairness by compensating in the present) and they get worried it will continue forever. It was never intended to last forever, but the reality is that there is still a lot of residual effects from slavery that are present in our society. I think if we came up with a 25/50 year plan that took yearly assessments on the progress of what we were doing, that it would bring more people into the fold. I think there are a lot of middle of the road Republicans (like I consider myself...I know get a good laugh) that would agree.

AA has great intentions, and at this point we are better with it than without it. In my lifetime I think we could see that pendulum swing where we have advanced enough as a society to lessen our need for AA. At least that is my hope (and should be the hope of everyone that supports AA).
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Good post.
 
People in the 1960s and early 70s didn't realize how resilient racism would be particularly institutional discrimination beyond de jure discrimination.
 
Holy shit, you subscribe to an RSS feed of Upworthy? You really do need a hobby
 
BeachBumDeac said:
Holy shit, you subscribe to an RSS feed of Upworthy? You really do need a hobby
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So I guess that spirited defense of racial discrimination against a minority group in the name of fairness isn't coming today either...

You guys haven't been this disappointing since Prom Night.
 
Learning that jhmd has Upworthy in his RSS Reader has made this entire thread worth it. Holy shit, that's delightful.

How many sappy motivational posters do you have up in your office too?
 
BeachBumDeac said:
Learning that jhmd has Upworthy in his RSS Reader has made this entire thread worth it. Holy shit, that's delightful.

How many sappy motivational posters do you have up in your office too?
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I don't have anything in my RSS Reader. I don't have one at all. It seems the conclusion beat the facts to your finish line. Again.

So...anything else off topic you want to talk about, or am I going to get a good reason why Asians get red-lined by this so-called fairness policy?
 
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