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Banning Critical Race Theory

birdman said:
The CRT that Angus believes in and believes is being taught in elementary schools, all the white shame and math is racist stuff, that’s not “mainline” CRT and it is not being taught in schools. I am sure Angus could Google up a few exceptions, a few academics that argue modern white people are responsible for past enslavement, or a few examples of a teacher making a white kid feel bad that his great great grand uncle was a confederate Sargent, but mostly, everything he is afraid of is not true.
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+1. CRT has traditionally been taught at the college level, and even there mostly in graduate studies. That CRT is most definitely not being taught on a widespread scale in American public schools. The CRT that people like Angus and Rufo believe is being forced into the heads of little kids around the country is largely a myth. As for teaching about systematic racism in American history, having more discussions about long-ignored events (and deliberately ignored) like the 1898 Wilmington Insurrection or the 1921 Tulsa massacre, then yes, schools are certainly doing more of that. But that's not traditional CRT, and it's certainly not true that teachers are teaching white kids to hate themselves or feel guilty in public schools. Hell, most teachers right now are just trying to survive another grueling year, and many are quitting from burnout and stress. There is a crisis in public ed, but it's not CRT.

Link: https://www.wfae.org/education/2021-10-18/staff-shortages-hobble-nc-schools-pandemic-recovery-as-teachers-quit-and-subs-are-scarce
 
Highland Deac said:
+1. CRT has traditionally been taught at the college level, and even there mostly in graduate studies. That CRT is most definitely not being taught on a widespread scale in American public schools. The CRT that people like Angus and Rufo believe is being forced into the heads of little kids around the country is largely a myth.
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I just completely disagree with your entire premise here, and I honestly don’t even understand the point of it. I don’t understand why you handful of liberals are so intent upon challenging these idiots fear of CRT and it’s burgeoning applications. It is most definitely taking root in our society and public education system, and they *should* be afraid of it. You are fighting a pointless battle trying to eschew their idiotic characterizations of it. Why can’t you just acknowledge something good is happening? I’m baffled.
 
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To help clarify, what I don’t understand specifically is why Democrats watch Republicans spread disinformation and then respond to them with good faith arguments? You guys know that angus and JH are full of shit, so what are you trying to convince them of? The entire point of their (Republican) strategy is to pressure you liberals to recant. They are trying to walk you back philosophically, just as they use disinformation to pressure democratic politicians to walk back campaign promises.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
I just completely disagree with your entire premise here, and I honestly don’t even understand the point of it. I don’t understand why you handful of liberals are so intent upon challenging these idiots fear of CRT and it’s burgeoning applications. It is most definitely taking root in our society and public education system, and they *should* be afraid of it. You are fighting a pointless battle trying to eschew their idiotic characterizations of it. Why can’t you just acknowledge something good is happening? I’m baffled.
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My point is quite clear and correct - what is traditionally defined as CRT is simply not being taught on a widespread scale in public schools. That is a fact, so what Angus and others are alleging is incorrect. As I said, if you wish to personally expand the definition of CRT to include more discussions of racism and systematic racism in schools by all means do so, but that is not what CRT originally was, or is. And I'm not "afraid" of it - I'm simply and accurately countering the incorrect assertions of people like Rufo, who have made great hay out of claiming that schools are teaching something that they are not. If you wish to argue that CRT is something broader by all means do so, but that's your business. And I'm perfectly happy that schools - which are increasingly diverse - are opening up their curriculum to include more discussions of race and race-related topics. But I won't ignore the attempts by right-wingers to incorrectly label it as CRT so they can ban it.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
To help clarify, what I don’t understand specifically is why Democrats watch Republicans spread disinformation and then respond to them with good faith arguments? You guys know that angus and JH are full of shit, so what are you trying to convince them of? The entire point of their (Republican) strategy is to pressure you liberals to recant. They are trying to walk you back philosophically, just as they use disinformation to pressure democratic politicians to walk back campaign promises.
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I have no hope of "convincing" people like Angus of anything. I'm just pointing out that what they're claiming about CRT isn't accurate, which is true.
 
Highland Deac said:
if you wish to personally expand the definition of CRT to include more discussions of racism and systematic racism in schools by all means do so, but that is not what CRT originally was, or is.
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What you have said here is a lie, plain and simple. You can find plenty of current and recent quotes from the authors of CRT that make clear how the theory has expanded and is defined

- “But critical race theory is not a single worldview; the people who study it may disagree on some of the finer points. As Professor Crenshaw put it, C.R.T. is more a verb than a noun.

“It is a way of seeing, attending to, accounting for, tracing and analyzing the ways that race is produced,” she said, “the ways that racial inequality is facilitated, and the ways that our history has created these inequalities that now can be almost effortlessly reproduced unless we attend to the existence of these inequalities.”

Professor Matsuda described it as a map for change.

“For me,” she said, “critical race theory is a method that takes the lived experience of racism seriously, using history and social reality to explain how racism operates in American law and culture, toward the end of eliminating the harmful effects of racism and bringing about a just and healthy world for all.””

That’s: Kimberlé Williams Crenshaw - The person widely credited with coining the term, a law professor at the U.C.L.A. School of Law and Columbia Law School.

and

Mari Matsuda, a law professor at the University of Hawaii who was an early developer of critical race theory.



Your limiting the definition of CRT to that of a law school class study is a lie of cowardly Liberals who are doomed to lose elections no matter how quickly they backpedal.


https://www.nytimes.com/article/what-is-critical-race-theory.amp.html
 
I don’t understand why I’m supposedly the the poster that just makes up shit, yet my definitions and understanding of CRT come from the original authors of CRT in easily google-able articles, while the rest of you liberals continue to hang onto the backtracking campaign definition of CRT that Ralph Northam was using in his losing political campaign.

I provide first hand sources and quotes for you all every time this topic comes up yet you still rebut like scared school board members. Your narrow definitions of CRT are way out of date.
 
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myDeaconmyhand said:
What you have said here is a lie, plain and simple. You can find plenty of current and recent quotes from the authors of CRT that make clear how the theory has expanded and is defined

- “But critical race theory is not a single worldview; the people who study it may disagree on some of the finer points. As Professor Crenshaw put it, C.R.T. is more a verb than a noun.

“It is a way of seeing, attending to, accounting for, tracing and analyzing the ways that race is produced,” she said, “the ways that racial inequality is facilitated, and the ways that our history has created these inequalities that now can be almost effortlessly reproduced unless we attend to the existence of these inequalities.”

Professor Matsuda described it as a map for change.

“For me,” she said, “critical race theory is a method that takes the lived experience of racism seriously, using history and social reality to explain how racism operates in American law and culture, toward the end of eliminating the harmful effects of racism and bringing about a just and healthy world for all.””

That’s: Kimberlé Williams Crenshaw - The person widely credited with coining the term, a law professor at the U.C.L.A. School of Law and Columbia Law School.

and

Mari Matsuda, a law professor at the University of Hawaii who was an early developer of critical race theory.



Your limiting the definition of CRT to that of a law school class study is a lie of cowardly Liberals who are doomed to lose elections no matter how quickly they backpedal.


https://www.nytimes.com/article/what-is-critical-race-theory.amp.html
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LOL. So it is a "lie" and "cowardly" to point out that white kids aren't being taught to hate themselves in class or to feel guilty because they're white? Or that a teaching method that started in grad school isn't being taught to elementary school kids? Have it your way - proudly proclaim that CRT is indeed everywhere in the public school curriculum. But it simply is not. A modified version of it may be used in teacher workshops and recommended books, but in day-to-day classroom teaching? You certainly choose interesting hills to die on.
 
Mdmh, no one is challenging your knowledge on the subject or your definition. All we are saying is that Angus is full of shit, spreading fear and misinformation about CRT. We are not saying elements of crt are not being taught in schools we are saying Angus’ boogeyman-white shame-fake CRT is not being taught is schools. Everything I’ve heard about real CRT, I like. Happy to have it taught in schools, etc. But, so many people believe the white-shame bogey man stuff, Democrats can’t go around saying “I support CRT.”
 
Basically every instance of these idiots complaining about white kids feeling guilty or black people blaming their problems
on racism is an actual instance of a CRT being applied which Republicans are just purposefully misinterpreting. Rather than just call the Republicans on their fear-mongering bullshit and disagree with them, you are insisting on taking your argument 1 step further backward by denying that its even CRT to begin with, all because some stupid politico or Washington post article you read about conservatives Crashing PTA meetings highlighted the scared shitless school principles denying that they are “teaching CRT”.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Basically every instance of these idiots complaining about white kids feeling guilty or black people blaming their problems
on racism is an actual instance of a CRT being applied which Republicans are just purposefully misinterpreting. Rather than just call the Republicans on their fear-mongering bullshit and disagree with them, you are insisting on taking your argument 1 step further backward by denying that its even CRT to begin with, all because some stupid politico or Washington post article you read about conservatives Crashing PTA meetings highlighted the scared shitless school principles denying that they are “teaching CRT”.
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MDMH do you have experience with CRT being taught in schools? I don’t know your occupation or if you have kids. I have kids in NC public schools and they are not being taught CRT. They do learn some about racism and anti-racism approaches, but there is little taught on this - they certainly could focus on this more.

So when you say it’s a lie, I’m not sure where you’re coming from. Maybe personal experience, maybe reading about it? But in my experience, public schools are not teaching CRT. And certainly not the boogeyman CRT.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Basically every instance of these idiots complaining about white kids feeling guilty or black people blaming their problems
on racism is an actual instance of a CRT being applied which Republicans are just purposefully misinterpreting. Rather than just call the Republicans on their fear-mongering bullshit and disagree with them, you are insisting on taking your argument 1 step further backward by denying that its even CRT to begin with, all because some stupid politico or Washington post article you read about conservatives Crashing PTA meetings highlighted the scared shitless school principles denying that they are “teaching CRT”.
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You are inserting a lot into my statements that is not there. Two things are true, what conservatives are afraid of is not CRT, and simultaneously what the conservatives call CRT is not being taught in school. Both are true and both are worth staying whenever an idiot comes along and says “math is racist now?!?!?”

Some elements of crt might actually be on the curriculum in some place but not what conservatives claim. I am not sure what else to say to you. The GOP has redefined the phrase CRT into a white-shaming distortion of what it really is and there is no point in trying to reclaim the phrase, imo. School boards would be smart to say “we are not teaching crt, but we are teaching a racially sensitive curriculum” or what ever phrase they want. The phrase CRT is toxic. The right won that word war.
 
MDMH, just substitute "feminism" or "Marxism" or "ecocrit" or "postmodernism" for "CRT" and you'll see that the broadening of definitions your reading into those statements from early practitioners is no different than somebody suggesting that elementary schoolers are being taught Marxism because they are learning about social class.
 
wakephan09 said:
MDMH, just substitute "feminism" or "Marxism" or "ecocrit" or "postmodernism" for "CRT" and you'll see that the broadening of definitions your reading into those statements from early practitioners is no different than somebody suggesting that elementary schoolers are being taught Marxism because they are learning about social class.
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*you’re

different *from
 
wakephan09 said:
MDMH, just substitute "feminism" or "Marxism" or "ecocrit" or "postmodernism" for "CRT" and you'll see that the broadening of definitions your reading into those statements from early practitioners is no different than somebody suggesting that elementary schoolers are being taught Marxism because they are learning about social class.
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And, yes, it is different. Kids learn dumbed down versions of everything, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t learning the thing. Kids are being taught that American society is structurally racist, that white privilege is a real thing, that equality is not equity, and other CRT concepts. That they aren’t learning the finer points of restorative justice theory, intersectionality theory, or Paul Butler’s views on jury nullification, say, doesn’t make what they are learning any less the foundational concepts of CRT.

MDMH is the only one of you who has the honesty to admit that. I disagree with him about whether teaching CRT in schools is a good thing, but at least he’s clear eyed about what is being taught.
 
WakeBored said:
And, yes, it is different. Kids learn dumbed down versions of everything, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t learning the thing. Kids are being taught that American society is structurally racist, that white privilege is a real thing, that equality is not equity, and other CRT concepts. That they aren’t learning the finer points of restorative justice theory, intersectionality theory, or Paul Butler’s views on jury nullification, say, doesn’t make what they are learning any less the foundational concepts of CRT.
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So pretty much exactly what I said: people are learning "CRT concepts" (even "foundational concepts") but not "the finer points of...theory".
 
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